@3scoutsmom - That was a kind thing to do. I’ve traveled with my kids on good days and bad days, and so appreciated the people who said nice things on good days. (On the bad days, I did my best, and appreciated the quite patience of others.)
I do try to compliment children and parents when their children behave well. It’s great to catch them doing well and celebrate it. I have always appreciated it when we have been told that our children have behaved very well on planes and I understand why the strangers sitting next to them might expect otherwise after having been seated next to or near poorly behaved children.
@garland Probably because I overreact to issues that push my buttons, and people’s intolerance towards children in planes and restaurants is one of those issues.
I know this thread is about a Mom who allowed her kid to misbehave - I agree she should have just apologized and then tried to do her best to keep the kid from kicking the seat. I agree that she didn’t seem to handle the situation well. I just don’t like the derogatory comments made about kids.
A lot of the comments in the article and in this thread have that “keep your bratty kid at home” attitude with many references to “bratty kids.” That’s not necessary - it wasn’t the kid’s fault. There have been many articles about this same topic in the past couple of decades - with the same intolerant attitude. It’s like no one was ever a kid themselves - no one ever cried in public or misbehaved when THEY were kids. Even kids with excellent parents will behave poorly sometimes- when they’re tired, hungry, bored, or for no reason at all. Kids are kids - they are temperamental beings. That doesn’t mean that kids who misbehave are brats! And contrary to popular opinion, it isn’t so simple to discipline a young child and get them to “straighten up” quickly, especially in a tight, restrictive environment like a plane. Tying a kid up and sticking a sock in their mouth generally isn’t an option. But people expect that to happen and get bent out of shape when a two year old doesn’t behave like a robot.
This pushes my buttons also because adults are worse. I’ve been appalled at the ugly, rude, hateful behavior that has become the norm in our society. Rude drivers. People who absolutely refuse to apologize for their misbehavior (the mom in the article is the rule, not the exception in my experience). People who don’t know how to be pleasant and polite in everyday life. And planes are full of those people. Just plain rude, impatient, and arrogant people who expect a plane packed to the gills to be free of any inconvenience or unpleasantness. Like it’s impossible just to grin and bear the experience for 2-3 hours without acting like a butt. I mean - one of the commenters in this thread stated that a man who was going to be sitting in front of her and her child told them before he even sat down that the kid better not bother him! Is that the true and common situation - that a frequent traveler is has been annoyed by children so often in his travels that’s it’s necessary to give proactive ground rules to any nearby children? I really don’t think that’s the case - I think he’s probably one of those people who doesn’t want anyone talking to him, touching him, making him wait for longer than 15 seconds for anything, getting in his way, etc. I’ve seen more of those types than bratty kids.
So, I’m not so sure that it’s the misbehaving kids that should be staying home. I think if the adults can’t be more patient and reasonable - they’re the ones who should not be travelling. They don’t have any excuse for their bad behavior.
@ucbalumnus In my case - nobody had assigned seats - it must have been a Southwest flight and we were one of the last people to board because of a tight connection (because I would have been the first to board with small kids otherwise). So I didn’t have anything to trade. I had the choice of a bunch of middle seats that weren’t close to each other that weren’t going to work for the three of us.
I paid it forward a few years later in a big way when I was travelling on December 23rd one year and on the final 2 hour leg home from an international trip (I’d been up for over 24 hours). We were all on board the plane when the airline figured out that they had let a couple too many stand-by passengers on the plane - the weather was sketchy and there was a possibility the plane might have to divert to another airport and because of fuel concerns they had to ask a couple of people who were already on the plane to give up their seats. So they asked the stand by passengers first. They actually told them they had to get off, but one lady started yelling and screaming that she was NOT going to get off - that she WAS going to be home for Christmas. The FA’s talked to her for several minutes to no avail, and she was going to be one of those people who security was going to have to drag off the plane (^what did I say about adults being worse than kids?). I was tired and just couldn’t deal with the drama combined with the thought of flying in bad weather, so I stood up and said I’d stay behind (and I had two young kids at home also waiting for me to be home for Christmas). The passengers all yelled thanks and applauded me! I appreciated that.
I don’t think anyone assumes a two year old should act like a robot. I do assume that if your kid can’t behave on an airplane, then you should drive or not go or find someone else to watch your kid, while you’re on the trip.
People who choose to travel with very young children and not assigned seats really shouldn’t be relying upon the kindness of random strangers, @leastcomplicated. I have booked airlines with seat assignments, or paid extra, or used miles to upgrade, or whatever it took, to make sure I had met my responsibility of being seated next to my children when they were young. Only once, when I thought they were old enough to be alone, did I board a plane knowing we were not seated together, and even then a kind gentleman offered to switch seats, getting both my profuse thanks and a drink and free wifi as my way of saying thank you for the favor he bestowed. Do not assume strangers owe you such favors.
There are people whose idea of how things should work with little kids is that you have old, crappy furniture for years until they somehow start behaving. (How, I do not know, since no one ever tells them how.) The idea that children should not be allowed to jump up and down on the furniture–in a public space–is foreign. The idea that little children should be encouraged to eat at a table, rather than wandering around the house with food is foreign. Everything in public places should be given over to these “families”–people without little kids do not qualify as a family-- “moms,” and children to trash at will.
I’ve run into this attitude at our church as we endeavor to refurnish our main space. Setting up a space with low tables and child-sized chairs is somehow an insult. (Note: no one is REQUIRED to remain there, and we are not talking about older kids, just the 1-6 set, probably.) Having new furniture is “putting unrealistic expectations on children’s behavior” because it is to be expected that a 3 yr old should be sitting on the sofa UNATTENDED eating a cupcake with icing or the like.
No, I say, no. I didn’t live like that, and I don’t want to live like that, and no one should have to live like that.
As a parent, part of your job is to BRING UP your children. Most of the parents of young children I know take it seriously. Some others are utterly egotistical failures.
@LeastComplicated – I still feel you’re opposing a straw man enemy. No one here is saying what you’re saying. Everyone is saying–kids can be bratty (ALL kids). It’s up to parents to address it. If they really don’t want to, or the kid is so out of control they’re hurting people, THEN they need to stay off the plane. I’m quite sure it’s not YOUR kids who are being addressed here. That’s what i mean about making it something it’s not.
I mean I think we agree, as it’s clear that, as you say, the parent who won’t control their child should stay home, that de facto leaves the child home, too.
Takes me back to the days of dealing with my kids in public places. Maybe they could still answer my question today.
me: “Why are all these people (in the grocery store or doctor’s office or restaurant) not here?”
kid “To hear me cry/complain/whine”
^You know how there was always one family who had to pull their kid out of story time or library activities for being a distraction. That was us with DS1. He was a disruptive and stubborn toddler.
Sometimes, the best laid plans get destroyed by things out of the control of the passenger.
For example, on Southwest, families with small children get boarding between the A and B groups (i.e. between #60 and #61) if they do not already have A passes (#1 through #60). But a late arriving flight on a connecting itinerary can mean that the family with small children may arrive at the gate as the C group (#121-#137) is boarding. (Yes, take non-stop flights if possible. But that is not possible for all destinations.)
On assigned-seat airlines, getting a pre-assigned seat is an extra fee, and there are plenty of examples of pre-assigned seats being lost, or the airline rearranges them to scatter them (e.g. if the type of aircraft is changed). Or there may be no seats available for pre-assignment at the time of booking. In either case, the family has to hope that some seats together are available at check-in (and that they are allowed to select such seats at check-in).
I was really worried when a family with two preschoolers sat next to me on an international flight recently, but the (French) parents were on top of the situation, armed with activities and snacks for the children, walking up and down the aisles with them when they needed to move (and the toddler needed to move for almost the entire flight - his dad is a saint!), and they did it all while speaking to their neighbors without sounding either entitled or apologetic. They win Parenting 101, and I can cite all too many cases where the parents could have resolved the issue by being as responsive as these two were, such as taking the kids outside of the restaurant while waiting for meals or taking a break from the religious ceremony when it was clear that the kid couldn’t sit still any longer.
I do understand how airline seating works. I do not believe there is an airport in the US in which only Southwest flies (at least I haven’t found one in my 200K miles this year). So yes,when I had small children, I booked non Southwest Airlines, even if it cost more. I paid for seat assignments, and called the airline to confirm them the day before the flight, putting a note on the record to keep my party together if humanly possible. If a connection was tight, I took the lengthier connection. And if no seats were available together at the time of booking, then I didn’t book that flight. I looked for an alternative with available seating together. Yes, airplane emergencies can still happen, and equipment can be changed out at the last minute, but I did everything in my power to minimize our likelihood of problems, by also bringing enough toys/books/snacks, that I could possibly manage. And I stayed alert throughout the flight to be vigilant in monitoring my children’s behavior, because I thought that was the decent thing to do as a parent for the rest of my fellow passengers. In all but one case, my kids were fine,and in the one case when the baby screamed inconsolably, I tried my best and I am grateful to those who helped. I do think that is all fellow passengers are asking for-try your best to make the flight pleasant for everyone on the plane. It is part of what I signed up for as a parent.
@garland Yeah, we’re on the same page.
@roycroftmom OK - you’ve got me. I admit I was a total failure as a parent for not having the foresight to imagine that a flight delay might prevent me from being able to pre-board with my kids on that particular trip. I now know that I needed to dot every i and cross every t and consider every possible thing that could have gone wrong.
However, despite that, I managed to research, plan, and execute several complicated multi-week, multi-city international family trips (which included difficult places like Kenya and India) that went off without a hitch. In addition, all of our many trips within the U.S. that I also organized went just as smoothly. The girls were absolute troopers and as far as I remember, we didn’t cause any unpleasantness for anyone (except for those two flights I mentioned earlier when they were about two and new to our family).
It’s one thing to be an attentive and responsible parent. It’s quite another thing to expect that the airline reservation system, and the weather, and all the other variables, will go along with your plans. You can try, but it’s illogical to judge anyone else without a full hearing about how all those variables went. Very often the person looking for a seat is in no way at fault.
I’ve had my seat assignment changed, or lost, or lost my seat from overbooking, or lost my seat because someone else was in it who had the same boarding pass.
Frequent flyers (presumably including those who fly 200,000 miles per year) may know what risky situations are to be avoided, and are more likely to have frequent flyer status that gives them priority (rebooking, seat assignment) when things go wrong.
Most people are occasional flyers who presumably are less aware of what problems can occur and how to minimize the risk of encountering them, and have no frequent flyer status, so they are the ones treated worst/last by the airlines.
I’ve been on planes where families of 5 get on at the last minute and expecting to sit together just isn’t reasonable. The airline should ask if the family is willing to split up or would prefer to take the next flight.
That’s why I refuse to book Southwest, even though they’re cheaper than Jetblue to Orlando. I want my family sitting together. Now, and especially when the kids were young. I’m willing to pay for those seats together.
But at it’s most basic, the story in the OP wasn’t about sitting with your kids or a bad child. It was about a mom who opted out.
Look, no kid is angelic all the time. Every parent in the world has experienced a toddler meltdown. It’s not about the kid. It’s about the parent and how the parent tried to deal with the child in a meltdown. Having no success with a toddler in a meltdown is one thing. Opting out is another, and simply isn’t fair to others. This particular mom opted out.
I know it’s been said before, but I think, given the last couple of pages of posts, that it needs to be reiterated:
I have absolutely NO problem with children having meltdowns, tantrums, etc., IF the parents are acknowledging and engaged with the children and at least trying. Yes, we’ve all been there, and sometimes there’s nothing you can do to stop the screaming. I also believe that, if possible, you remove the child from the situation in which the child is bothering others until they do calm down. (That of course does not apply to a plane, but it does to a theater, movie, restaurant).
I DO have a problem with the parent who says, “I paid for this ticket so my kid can do whatever he/she wants and you’ll just have to suck it up.” Or simply ignores what’s going on.
We all know the differences between kids having a hard time with attentive parents, and brats.
Actually, Southwest’s family boarding policy works well as long as you are at the gate on time, since families with small children get to board between the A and B groups (between boarding passes #60 and #61), unless they already have earlier boarding passes (see https://www.southwest.com/html/generated/help/faqs/boarding_the_plane_faq.html ). The risk is mainly on connecting flights, or if your group otherwise tends to cut it close arriving to the gate. However, if you cut it that close, airlines with assigned seats will probably have given away your seats to standby passengers.
Jet Blue is probably lower risk than other assigned seat airlines, because they have relatively few aircraft types, so the “changed aircraft, now all of your pre-assigned seats are lost or randomized” phenomenon is less likely than on other assigned seat airlines.
When my kids were young and had to travel by plane, we bore the additional expense of choosing an airline with assigned seats and a direct flight, whenever possible. This was resulted in a much better travel experience for my family after having previously experienced the challenges of open seating.