<p>I was heartsick when I read about this boy’s death and it especially hit hard when I realized he was a CC poster. I can’t imagine the pain these parents are experiencing at this time. I don’t ever want to know that pain … our children should outlive us … we shouldn’t have to bury them. I went back through and read some of his posts. What he perceived as “controlling” with many of us parents on this board was nothing more than concern and love for our children. His death reinforces that for me and I plan to have my DD sit down and read every single message he has ever posted here. DD is not very tolerant of the kids she knows who drink (the “weekend drunks” she calls them), but I have no doubt that she, like many, will experiment in college. We have an open and honest relationship and I want that to continue. I don’t ever want to “control” my DD, but I do want to be involved in her life, one which I hope outlasts mine by many, many years.</p>
<p>My thoughts are with this boy’s family and friends. I can only hope that his death will serve as a reminder to parents and children alike that alcohol consumption has been, and remains to be, a problem on college campuses across the country.</p>
<p>Guiltguru,
you are right in that you actually did challenge Lucifer…I saw that on the first post of this thread…you have not been here until now, and I didn’t even know if you knew about this… I did wonder what your reaction would be, because you had been so proactive. There are many great 'rents here helping on roomate issues, essays, sheets, etc… anyway, YOU did see it this past fall or early winter…and you did encourage Lucifer to get help… and your worst fears were realized. </p>
<p>My response was more to Cheers who was lamenting having really missed the clues…I have a hazy recollection of reading something from Lucifer but I can’t remember and I go sooo turned off with all the Williams college drinking posts that I stayed away from those threads. I do not ever go to the Cornell site…</p>
<p>Seeing the string of quotes that Calmom was generous enough to pull together with a timeline makes me say that Lucifer was protesting toooo much. All that brain power trying to justify drinking to excess. </p>
<p>I have never heard of anyone dying of water intoxication… not saying it doesn’t happen…I lost a parent to alcoholism so I know first hand the dangers of alcohol. I also know that we are dealing with teen brains…that are not listening to us. So, I continue to try to figure out how to define moderation … </p>
<p>a good friend’s child had a halucinatory experience that put her in the emergency room after having a toke or two from a pipe with pot… other kids did not have that experience… I pray that it scared her for life… no idea why this child’s reaction was sooo severe? but, the point is, it could have been any kid in the car… </p>
<p>please do not think that I am cavalier about this stuff…I am NOT. I sincerely appreciate your participation in this dialog. </p>
<p>emeraldkity4 (who, for the longest time I thought was emeraldKITTY, LOL), let’s see if I can answer your questions scientifically in a way that makes sense.</p>
<p>“alcohol drinks dehydrate is that correct?
so why wouldn’t drinking water be important?”</p>
<p>This is correct, alcohol in moderation causes a diuresis (increased urination), so REPLACING this water is important. However, alcohol intoxication along with drinking excess amounts of water (as little as 1.3 quarts or 40 ounces or 5 glasses of water) and not eating salt at the same time can cause water intoxication and cerebral edema. Here’s a nice summary from wikipedia (actually accurate):</p>
<p>"Drinking excess water in the absence of dietary sodium results in hyponatremia, an overdilution of sodium in the blood plasma, which in turn causes an osmotic shift of water from the blood plasma into brain cells. The brain cells swell as result of osmotic pressure and ultimately cease functioning. Initial symptoms typically include light-headedness (hence “water intoxication”), sometimes accompanied by nausea, vomiting, headache and/or malaise. Plasma sodium levels below 100 mmol/L frequently results in cerebral edema, seizures, coma, and death within a few hours of drinking the excess water. As with an alcohol overdose, the progression from mild to severe symptoms may occur rapidly as the body continues to absorb water from the stomach.</p>
<p>A person with two healthy kidneys can rid themselves of about 1.5 litres of water per hour at maximum filtration (other studies find the limit to be as little as 0.9L/hr [1]) . Consuming as little as 1.8 liters of water in a single sitting may prove fatal for a person adhering to a low-sodium diet, or 3 liters in a person on a normal diet."</p>
<p>My words of caution against the Ariesathena method still stand.</p>
<p>//From Maineparent:I have never heard of anyone dying of water intoxication//</p>
<p>"Marathon runner’s death linked to excessive fluid intake </p>
<p>By Stephen Smith, Globe Staff, 8/13/2002 </p>
<p>The 28-year-old runner who collapsed and died in this year’s Boston Marathon was felled by a precipitous cascade of medical events brought on in part by drinking too much fluid, the state medical examiner’s office concluded yesterday. </p>
<p>Cynthia Lucero, who in the week before the April marathon completed her doctoral dissertation on how marathons help runners grieve, died from a condition known as hyponatremic encephalopathy, which happens when the brain becomes swollen because of a critical imbalance of sodium. She was only the second runner to die in the 106-year history of the race."</p>
<p>but she is Emerald Kitty!<br>
CC friends, the death of our poster Lucifer hit me pretty hard. I am very glad to be able to process this horrid news with you. </p>
<p>He certainly felt invulnerable, smarter and stronger than the rest of us humans. This is not that unusual for alpha males in his age bracket. </p>
<p>I found his post about “how to buy illegally in the self service aisle by switching out the stickers” to be pretty provocative for such an intelligent person. His identity at this point in life was way to tied up with drinking.</p>
<p>I don’t think it is unfair to speculate that he already had an alcohol problem, habit and a lot of confusion about his tolerance. </p>
<p>But he clearly loved life and was looking forward to his future.</p>
<p>no actualy it is a play on where I live, Seattle- and for some reason the tourist bureau adopted emerald city- so it is emeraldkity one t</p>
<p>I have heard of electrolyte imbalances, and water poisoning ( why you dont teach babies to swim)-
but since I don’t like to be dehydrated ( and even one or two drinks without water can make you feel like crap the next morning) how much water should you drink- assuming eating normally and average body weight?</p>
<p>Alumother, thank you for having the courage to share the story. If we were to play the “degree of separation game” for fatal and near death incidents, I believe that the result would be shocking. In a timespan of less than one year, FIVE people I knew well died from the results of drinking -two from poisoning, three from car crashes. </p>
<p>Yet, the story that goes around is that it only happens to … others. One reason is that there is a stigma associated with telling the truth about drug or alcohol use, and even about some medical problems. In a way, we all are expected to be perfect, and while some kids might come close, the reality is that none of us are and that all of us need guidance to become adults.</p>
<p>Alumother, I don’t think that Lucifer would have seen himself in your daughter’s story – it’s the nature of the problem to think it happens to others, not oneself. And I believe that the pressures kids are under at all schools, but especially very selective schools, is part of the problem. People who use alcohol may be ‘self medicating’ to avoid dealing with anxiety and/or depression. It seems to me that Princeton’s health services helped your daughter in a very appropriate way – I wish that kids who run into the slightest bit of trouble with alcohol were required to seek counseling. I also think that your strategy of keeping in frequent contact with your daughter is a good one. Good luck!</p>
<p>Alumother, I agree with sjmom…he wouldn’t have seen himself in her freshman follies–he was an “experienced drinker who knew when to vomit etc.” Thanks for sharing with us, and I congratulate you on having a relationship with a 19 year old where parent and daughter can discuss partying and drinking and social giddiness that led to harm. May all of our children feel they can call us when they make mistakes. May they be free from the burdens of having caused harm to others when their judgment is poor.<br>
I have to say that the sadness of this event and others just as serious in our circle here in Virginia does make me feel even better about setting forth clear values, limits and consequences as a parent. Our kids need to know what we believe and what we know. It does nag at me that this young man posted here so many times defending alcohol as a central social force for teens. I feel he was looking to hear our collective parent belief statements about limitations and various views on right and wrong re underage drinking cultures, even if he was not ready to listen and was sky high on his own youth.
This incident makes my heart ache, but also raises questions like, would my S call if he was written up for drinking, would he give in to group pressure and skewed norms to get a medical check for a friend, will others watch over him and will he have the blessing of never hurting anyone else when under the influence? And lastly, preaching abstinance as a great choice is looking good to me as a parent today.</p>
<p>Alumother–wow, I am so glad that your daughter is okay and doing well. My oldest son went through something pretty serious also, related to drinking, and is also doing much better since. I wish that Lucifer could have had a wake up call like that, so that he could still be here today. But I agree with the others, he wouldn’t have identified with your daughter or my son. He wasn’t ready to acknowledge that he might have a problem, unfortunately. This is just so terribly heartbreaking.</p>
<p>Thanks calmom. I wondered if there may have been a radical change between high school and college. Marathoner? I’ll bet one of his parents was one too. Top student in a good public school? Doesn’t jive with binge drinker. </p>
<p>Yet, within months at Cornell, he was spouting all sorts of nonsense–on the CC Parents Board no less. I know hundreds of 19 year old boys, some big drinkers, some not, some abstainers. The boys who set out to binge drink are the ones that worry me. Their drinking is always related to their poor state of mind. Unlike lucifer, most troubled boys do not go to adult cyber forums and wave flags. They simply numb themselves with alcohol. That was very unusual behavior, I’d say in hindsight. A cry in the wilderness.</p>
<p>I don’t feel anger though. I feel sad. A troubled, impressionable kid gone.</p>
<p>Cheers, to answer your question about a change from HS to Cornell, this is what he said:
“I learned as much from drinking/partying during high school as I did from classes”</p>
<p>So this was not a behaviour that he just picked up in college. He brought it with him.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing such a personal story. I almost lost a sister due to alcohol. She too went away to college and tested her limits. When she drank she changed completely: abusive, agressive, supremely sure of herself and her actions. And all it took was a couple of drinks.</p>
<p>Then one night during freshman year she was drinking at a concert, again only a few beers. She passed out. Her heart stopped. Paramedics were able to revive her with CPR.</p>
<p>She never drank again. Today she is happily married with a devoted husband and three boys.</p>
<p>It’s doesn’t always happen to someone else. Sometimes it does happen to those we know and love.</p>
<p>…because the (large) point is that you are forcing yourself to pace yourself. If you diligently drink water - or do any activity!!! - you are getting out of the mentality of drinking. It pulls you away from the “drinking scene” for a fair amount of time. You stand in line at the bar for some water while your friends drink. You sip said water while your friends drink. You head to the bathroom while others drink. You stand in line for the bathroom while others drink. You return to the table/bar/group of friends - and have to wait until everyone else is done with their booze before you get another drink. De facto, you aren’t going to consume more than a drink or two per hour - but if you think, as a physician, that 16 oz of water is deadly, I’ll retract my advice. </p>
<p>It’s also the psychological equivalent of reigning in your spending by using cash, not plastic: you realize how much you are consuming. Proven method for slowing down spending is to use cash - to make what you are doing more tangible. Likewise, the biggest thing that twenty-somethings can do is to “tie” their alcohol consumption in with something tangible, so they keep track of what they’ve had to drink.</p>
<p>I NEVER advocate underage drinking, by the way - teenage drinking is, IMO, irresponsible.</p>
<p>Correct me if I’m wrong… but more people die every year from various forms of alcohol poisoning than from water intoxication. Let’s figure out how to get people to slow down their drinking before stressing over a very, very, VERY rare side effect. Let’s settle this the easy way: figure out how many Americans have died from alcohol poisoning, drunk driving, and misc. alcohol deaths, and how many have died from an excess of water. </p>
<p>You mentioned “those on a low-sodium diet.” Clearly, that’s college students… (rolls eyes). Clearly, most bars offer low-sodium potato chips and popcorn, because then people drink more. Pardon the sarcasm, but really - let’s talk about the groups at risk for “water poisoning.”</p>
<p>While I do appreciate the acknowledgement that electrolyte imbalance can be a problem, I do not appreciate you divorcing that from scientific and psychological facts.</p>
<p>Alumother, thank you for sharing your D’s story and for being brave about it so others do realize that the notion of it happening to “everyone else but me” just is not realistic. Even Lucifer had that attitude that it could not happen to him. These stories really tug at one’s heart. Your D learned a valuable lesson in time. </p>
<p>I hope SOME kids learn something by these tragedies though I fear that kids will contiue to think, “it can’t happen to me” as Lucifer also seemed to feel as noted in some of his writings. </p>
<p>Thank you, Alumother. I, too, appreciate your candor. It’s a tough road. My two kids were raised in the same household. We allowed them to have some wine at family holiday meals. We stressed the importance of drinking responsibly and that the unforgivable offense was drinking/driving or getting in a car with a driver who had been drinking. We had an amnesty policy for the kids and their friends. D never abused drinking in high school. S did.<br>
It sounds like Lucifer drank a fair amount in high school, but so do lots of kids. A lot of them are top students and athletes, too. Lucifer went over the top, and it is truly, truly unfortunate. I hope we can help teach this lesson to others.</p>
<p>So true, soozievt–the “it’ll never happen to me because I am ____” attitude of Lucifer about drinking made him impervious to adult advice. I could only hope at the time that he was right and that my thought that he was a train wreck ready to happen was off the mark. I expected to see him having alcohol problems in college, but not these terrible results. . .</p>
<p>From lucifer in 2005 to a student facing a suspension…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>10 day suspension? At Ladue high school, that had to be more than just a ‘drink at a dance’. Lots of kids do drink in high school. Repeat bingers are not the norm though, MOWC. Repeat binging should be a very worrying signal.</p>
<p>Many many warning signs, apparently. Nevermind that CC posters, me included, missed the gravity of his pro-binge posts, his family and schools missed the oncoming crash too. </p>
<p>Have you ever known a child who is driven, and I mean driven, to drink? I have a brother who was on a mission to drink–from the age of 12. It’s a frightening thing to see. My parents never dealt with it head on. The thinking of that day was that if you didn’t drink, eventually your children would come right.</p>
<p>My borther is still alive, but he isn’t sober, married and living happily ever after, that’s for sure.</p>
<p>Alumother, thank you for having the courage to share your experience with your own daughter. </p>
<p>Cheers, I have learned since the time of my post that there really was not a significant change in attitude – Lucifer had drinking problems in high school, though perhaps college was a time when the intensity of his drinking increased. Perhaps the only thing that changed was that, in his college world where drinking was more accepted, he felt more confident to disclose the details of his drinking exploits. </p>
<p>In any case, his family apparently was well aware of the problem and the history of drinking – so certainly no one on this board should feel guilty for not having noticed a red flag or taken action to get this kid help. I believe from what I have now learned that there were probably many who were close to him who tried: he simply was not listening and nothing that could have been said to him on an anonymous public forum would have helped. He just lived in that world of the invincible that so many teenagers and young adults inhabit. (“It can’t happen to me”)</p>
<p>I do want to note that Lucifer also posted about Cornell’s intensive alcohol-education program, apparently given to all incoming Freshman during O-week. Again - while there is nothing wrong with such programs - they also can only reach students who are receptive to their message, which for the most part are probably the students who need it the least. In a way, I think Lucifer exemplifies the adage “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” – he probably took some of the “facts” he learned and distorted them to fit his own rationalizations.</p>