A Must Read for Parents/Students: Lessons to be learned from tragedy

SBmom · March 22, 2006, 6:28pm

Alumother, kudos for posting your story. The tragic death of Lucifer, and hearing stories such as yours, should smack ALL of us upside the head.

As I posted in another thread I had just found out the other day, in a chat with my D, about a boy at D’s school who is acting weird and depressed and maybe pre-suicidal… and D had not reported it to anyone! I would NEVER have believed that after all my frank advice and warnings, she could have missed the severity of the signals nor have shrugged off the responsibility of doing something to intervene.

That scared me, because it proved that to some degree all our good advice goes out the window when our kids are surrounded by new peers. First, there is a new age-20 version of ‘normal.’ Second, they feel like instant adults and don’t want to threaten that competent feeling by questioning themselves very much. Third, they don’t want to threaten new friendships by judging as “dumb” decisions that friends make. In my D’s case, kids “closer” to the affected kid were not intervening, it may have seemed intrusive or insulting to the closer friends go around them and take action.

Social insecurity = bad decisions.

No matter how much fun they are having nor how well their schools “match them,” they are going to be insecure about lots of things at this age… their coolness, attractiveness, competence, etc. Maybe an overcompenstation for insecurity is this pervasive illusion of being bulltproof.

The sidebar about boys/flirting is particularly important. My D too went from duckling to swan-- and her college social life has been turbocharged compared to HS; alcohol certainly makes social events breezier, as one’s self-consciousness goes down.

It is time to take a moment to urge all our kids to assess the ‘whys’ and ‘what-ifs’ of drinking.

I well remember a night spent lying terrified next to my best friend in college, who had had too much to drink, making sure she kept on breathing. Why didn’t I call 911? I knew enough to be concerned, yet I somehow thought I could handle it. I got away with that dumb decision; she woke up and she is my friend to this day.

Even responsible, intelligent, high-achieving kids can be IDIOTS.

I feel so sad for this kid and his family.

Northstarmom · March 22, 2006, 6:48pm

"So basically at the beginning we have a kid who advocates caution until one can develop a sense of their own “tolerance” – and by January the same kid is experimenting with Everclear, and is confident that 12 shots is safe for anyone with “reasonable tolerance”

For the many people who don’t know, a high tolerance for booze is an early sign of alcoholism. Unfortunately, many people erroneously assume that a high alcohol tolerance is a sign that they are immune to having alcohol related problems.

jrpar · March 22, 2006, 6:51pm

One of the news articles online quotes Lucifer’s grandfather as acknowledging that Lucifer had had previous problems with alcohol.

As I read through his posts last night, I was struck by how much “knowledge” of alcohol he had armed himself with. I wondered if this in some way was a warning sign - by accumulating the knowledge somehow he was empowered to abuse alcohol. Mini or others with professional knowledge, is this common among those who abuse alcohol?

Edit: calmom, I posted before reading your post just above - and am echoing a couple of your points …

ariesathena · March 22, 2006, 6:52pm

…because EMTs and MDs never told you to call.

I’m completely serious. I’ve had police officers tell me to call if my house looks suspicious, instead of going in alone. So when I returned home, alone, to hear a robber alarm going off, I got an escort to go through the house with me and find the problem. When I saw a hitchiker on the side of the road last week, I remembered that a state trooper once told me to call *77 in such situations - they’ll come along and pick them up, or help with flats, or whatever - don’t stop yourself, but call for help.

I don’t worry about making the “wrong” decision to call for professional help when those professionals have said that they want calls in those situations. If the medical community came out in force and said that they don’t mind dealing with kids that are just drunk - err on the side of caution - then more kids might call.

emeraldkity4 · March 22, 2006, 7:01pm

I have to say at D college- they have a very good rapport with community services officers- one of her best friends is even an EMT ( and getting paramedic certification) They know they can call CSOs to walk them to their off campus apts and I am fairly sure they call them in case of someone who is ill-

xiggi · March 22, 2006, 7:17pm

A little sidenote about students leaving a trail of messages detailing heavy drinking. Since someone mentioned the Sam Spady story, after her dead there were many mentions of her blog/facebook filled with stories of wild parties and excessive drinking. The parents were absolutely in the dark about how much the girl had changed after leaving home. However, the signs of a life spinning out out of control were all over the place. In an ironic way, this may be the results of all the messages sent by colleges to parents that they should butt out and allow the students to become mature on their own. Because of our new rights of privacy (grades or medical records) parents are no longer there to offer the first safety net. Sadly enough, the schools or our friends are not necessarily able and willing replacements!

soozievt · March 22, 2006, 7:35pm

Cheers, you may be surprised at how harsh the consequences are at some public high schools. My niece, the one I mentioned got pancreatitus and was very ill at college last winter after a drinking bout and landed in the hospital…well the year before in spring of senior year, she was on a senior year class trip to Disney World and she got caught along with another girl drinking at Pleasure Island with two males they had met (forget that she wasn’t 18 and should not have been at Pleasure Island) and got sent home at her own expense and was suspended five days from school AND was not allowed to attend Prom AND was not allowed to attend GRADUATION! This was first offense.

maineparent · March 22, 2006, 8:51pm

I agree with Cheers that there are some folks who are “driven” to drink. I know from having a parent who was an active member of AA, for over 20 years, a sponsor of hundreds in those years… that when many of the members speak, they talk about remembering their first drink. I believe that the serotonin reaction that alcohol sets off for some, resonates thru their body, to a point where a lot of their energy is now used to repeat the sensation. I think that the obsession with justifying the drinking that was exhibited here by Lucier is a glimpse into how much of his energy was going towards protecting his ability to maintain his high. I have seen what alcohol abuse/misuse can do at its best, which is the worst kind of personal destruction…it is not anything that a normal healthy person would ever choose. Why they experience the craving is not yet fully understood nor accepted. But, I have seen someone lose over 20+ years of active, celebrated sobriety. My dad died of a massive heart attack in March playing racquetball in a tournament. 100% unexpected and 100% final. My mom stayed the course…was getting her LN degree…in May, while stopped for a school bus, she was hit from behind by a tractor trailer truck and injured. That proved to be the catalyst that exposed her vulnerability and the fact she was alone. Broken arm etc… dealing with car repairs, insurance etc all “straws that broke her back”… by XMAS, she was secretly drinking… and because it is a progressive disease, it was as if she had never stopped… within 2 yrs she was dead… a massive stroke… because the binge drinking left all the systems over taxed…so why am I describing this? simply because I am feeling very sad about Lucifer…and the post from Cheers spoke to me. I have seen someone “driven” to drink…I suspect, in hindsight, that Lucifer was driven to an obsession with alcohol based on the frequency and strength of his opinions about drinking expressed here on CC.

I read and I post on CC because I like the consistent, yet myriad voices here on CC…and I wish I could meet Alumother because I know she has a great heart. Just when you think you “know” someone, another layer is peeled back to reveal even more reasons why they are special.

I wish safe and happy, healthy kids to all CC parents…love 'em while we have 'em.

cheers · March 22, 2006, 9:08pm

However, the signs of a life spinning out out of control were all over the place.

What are the signs that a 19 year old is spinning out of control?

That’s one conversation. Repeatedly and agressively boasting on a parent’s forum would be a big sign, I’d say. A 10 day suspension as an under 17 year old is another big sign.

What do you do to reel them back in? That’s another conversation. In my experience, those driven to drink (very troubled) are nearly impossible to reel back in, unlike the garden variety who is merely impressionable. How to distinguish between the two? (Say a prayer? Cross your fingers? Ask a friend?)

And how far do you take the reeling back? Was Cornell notified of a 10 day suspension? Sounds like it. That they accepted him despite such a severe suspension seems way off par to me.

Knowing Cornell has a super high pressure, super competitive atmosphere, would you have sent a troubled child up to Cornell Engineering? On the hope that he is cured? I might have, hoping beyond hope that the drinking would pass, that he’d be too busy to drink.

Tough tough questions.

NYMomof2 · March 22, 2006, 9:53pm

Coming from a large Irish-American family in which alcoholism is rampant, I worry about my children drinking when they’re older (they’re now 13 and 7). Both of my parents were alcoholics, although my mother stopped drinking completely 20 years ago when my youngest sister became very ill (her bargain with God). A couple of my siblings are alcoholic (there were 10 of us so the percentage is quite low). One of my brothers left my father’s funeral lunch a few months ago because beer was not being served. In my parents’ generation (they were both from huge families), the incidence of alcoholism is about 90%. I felt physically ill when I read about the young man who just died, out of sympathy for his family and friends, and because I know this could happen to any of us, no matter how well we do as parents.

About 2 years ago, at my older son’s annual physical, the pediatrician said to him, in a matter-of-fact way, that when he was older he would have to be careful about alcohol, because of the history of alcoholism in my family. I thought this was a good way to handle the subject. I hasten to add that I drink minimally, as does my husband. I have at most 2 glasses of wine a week, and many weeks I don’t drink it at all. The sugar in it bothers me more than the alcohol. What I do drink a lot is non-alcoholic beer. It’s very refreshing and not sweet. So we are modelling sensible behavior; of course I know that this is no guarantee.

My younger son often asks to taste the nonalcoholic beer, and I always say no. Last week, I dyed some green and offered a little to each of my sons. The older one refused, the younger one tried it but didn’t like it. Last night, I told my 13-year-old about the sad story I’d read about the young man who had died (presumably) of alcohol poisoning. We had a conversation about it, and my son mentioned that he had not tried the green nonalcoholic beer on St. Patrick’s Day because he was afraid that if he liked the taste, he might start drinking (real) beer when he was older. He also mentioned that Richard Feynman (he is reading everything he can get by or about him these days) was cautious about alcohol and didn’t use drugs in order to preserve his brain function. My guess is that this child will not have an alcohol problem; he has a very clear direction in life and is not susceptible to peer pressure. I hope I’m not fooling myself. I worry more about the younger one, who is very social and already quite concerned about conforming to the expectations of his friends.

interesteddad · March 23, 2006, 1:05am

That’s the big problem here. Students, parents, colleges, alumni, and college social organizations all pay lip service to the drinking issue, but then turn around and condone or even endorse it.

Why is Cornell admitting students who have been suspended for alcohol in high school? Am I to believe that, of the 20,000 applicants, they can’t fill a freshman class with students who aren’t high school alcoholics? I bet I could go to their website right this minute and read all about the great “Greek system” as if nobody knows those organizations exist, in large part, as centers of drinking.

Cornell is not the only one. There’s a similar kid to Lucifer posting on the Williams board. Admitted ED, despite a 10th grade suspension for booze. Posting all kinds of questions about how easy it is to buy booze, cocaine, etc.

As good as these admissions offices are, they could cut back on the number of alcoholics they enroll, if they wanted to. Bottom line, too many people believe this kind of destructive drinking is “normal” behavior. Don’t believe me? Post something in the parents forum about binge drinking rates or fraternity drinking. You’ll get instant rationalization.

I’ll tell you what makes me puke (not booze)…it’s that the second paragraph in the Lucifer news story was devoted to the fraternity covering its butt. Would have done Eddie Haskell proud. Oh no, Mrs Cleaver, we don’t drink at our fraternity! He brought his own booze. The college newspapers print these nonsense denials unchallenged – every time. And, the colleges are partners by promoting the fraternities in their marketing speils.

Northstarmom · March 23, 2006, 5:23am

"I know from having a parent who was an active member of AA, for over 20 years, a sponsor of hundreds in those years… that when many of the members speak, they talk about remembering their first drink. I believe that the serotonin reaction that alcohol sets off for some, resonates thru their body, to a point where a lot of their energy is now used to repeat the sensation. "

So true. There has been research indicating that a factor predicting alcoholism is what happened when one had one’s first alcoholic drink. People who experienced it as exhilarating are more likely to become alcoholic than are people who didn’t have such a thrilling sensation.

My older son became immediately hooked on cigarettes when he decided to “look cool” by walking on stage smoking a cigarette for his rock band’s performance. He was 20. The minute he started smoking, he loved it, and ended up smoking an entire pack that day without even getting sick. He continues to smoke.

He grew up in a home in which no one smoked and no guests were allowed to smoke in the home. He was a kid who would embarass me by trying to lecture smoking strangers about smoking’s dangers.

"That’s the big problem here. Students, parents, colleges, alumni, and college social organizations all pay lip service to the drinking issue, but then turn around and condone or even endorse it.

Why is Cornell admitting students who have been suspended for alcohol in high school? "

What are you suggesting? That any teen who has suspended for alcohol in high school should be forever banned from attending college? Do you think that would end underaged drinking or teens dying the way that lucifer did?

And even if Cornell had rejected Lucifer for that reason, more than likely he’d have continued the same behavior with the same sad result.

“I’ll tell you what makes me puke (not booze)…it’s that the second paragraph in the Lucifer news story was devoted to the fraternity covering its butt. Would have done Eddie Haskell proud. Oh no, Mrs Cleaver, we don’t drink at our fraternity! He brought his own booze.”

I agree. I also agree with you that it’s a travesty that so many people think that heavy drinking is a normal rite of passage of adolescence. Not everyone does this. Interesting, too, that research indicates that such drinking is more likely to be acceptable to whites than to black people in the US.

“White non-Hispanic youth ages 12 to 17 reported the highest frequency of binge drinking (9 percent) as compared with 6 percent of Hispanic and 3 percent of black non-Hispanic youth.
Binge drinking among youth ages 12 to 17 appears to occur most frequently in the North Central region of the United States and in metropolitan areas.”
<a href=“http://www.health.org/govpubs/rpo995/[/url]”>http://www.health.org/govpubs/rpo995/</a>

“Among college students in one survey, rates of binge drinking were highest among Caucasians, 43.3% for males and 24.4% for females; among African-Americans the rates were 24.8% for males and 5.4% for females; and among Asians, 32% for males and 20% for females (“Alcohol and Drugs on Virginia College Campuses,” State Council of Higher Education for Virginia, 3/93, p. 11).”

ADad · March 23, 2006, 7:12am

And those CYA people (all over, not just at that fraternity or just in college) are the ones that a kid is entrusting his life to if he overdoses. They are the people who have to have the sobriety, maturity, knowledge of danger signs, and willingness to risk getting in trouble in order to seek help and save the kid’s life.

MomofWildChild · March 23, 2006, 9:03am

Interesteddad- You aren’t living on this planet. My son’s suspension/expulsion in high school didn’t have to do with alcohol or drugs (although some of that was going on). HOWEVER, in our college application process, we were told repeatedly that alcohol violations in high school are a total non-issue. Despite what you might think from this board, there are SO many suspensions in high school due to alcohol that it doesn’t even give pause. At my son’s prep boarding school a trusted faculty member told me that they EXPECT high school students to experiment with alcohol. Yes, there are consequences and the school does everything possible to educate the kids, discourage this and keep them safe. Lucifer’s 10 day suspension for alcohol in no way screams “alcoholic”. If Lucifer’s high school guidance counselor or the teachers writing his recs thought he had an addiction problem, it was up to them to alert the family and Cornell. For all we know the 10 day suspension was for deciding to spike the punch at the prom! As I mentioned to you before, a kid from my son’s prior prep school (the one from which he was expelled) with the most serious drinking problem, who was, in fact, not invited back for his senior year due to two serious alcohol violations (including an ER trip) is now happily at Swarthmore playing soccer and continuing his heavy drinking.

NYMomof2 · March 23, 2006, 10:15am

Are suspensions and other negative information reported to colleges, or are they kept confidential? Sorry to display my ignorance, but we’re still 5 years away from college applications.

berurah · March 23, 2006, 10:28am

I find this a bit disconcerting. Now, granted I have six kids, some of whom are too young to be involved with this type of stuff yet, but so far, I have three kids who clearly demonstrate how it CAN be if you don’t “expect” alcohol experimentation…if, instead, you tell them in NO uncertain terms that greater things (and more responsible things) ARE EXPECTED from them. Period. I think there is a huge wink-wink/nod- nod mentality going on…many parents give lip service to the dangers of alcohol abuse/misuse and then “politely” look the other way because on some level, they “expect” that their child will do this and they somehow consider it “the norm.” My husband and I DO NOT. And to me, it is a very mixed message, IMHO.

What a pity, especially as I can think of one amazing (and NONDRINKING) kid on this forum who was rejected by Swat last spring…sigh

~berurah

quiltguru · March 23, 2006, 10:31am

“Despite what you might think from this board, there are SO many suspensions in high school due to alcohol that it doesn’t even give pause. At my son’s prep boarding school a trusted faculty member told me that they EXPECT high school students to experiment with alcohol.”

Sad, but true. Two nights ago I attended a meeting at my D’s school for parents of graduating seniors to discuss the upcoming few months before and including commencement.The school psychologist was there ostensibly to discuss “senioritis” and separation issues. What all the parents wanted to talk about was alcohol and identifying the next 3 months as a high risk time for their kids…with strategies to address the issue.

I would have been shocked at the majority attitude of parents (all kids drink, we let them drink at our parties but take their car keys, kids are good at policing themselves so we don’t have to, we’re proud of our 17 year old daughter because she handles alcohol in moderation…!!!), except that my D had asked me the previous weekend if she could attend the cast party for her HS musical where she knew alcohol was permitted. She was very honest that the parents would be present, were permitting alcohol, but were taking keys of kids who drank and insisting they spend the night. She does not drink. She had already made arrangements to go to another non-drinking friend’s house down the street if drinking was too prevalent. We had a long discussion and agreed that she could attend but was not permitted to spend the night as the other kids were doing. An hour before the party, she had IM discussions with her 5 closest friends in the play, and they decided to go see a movie together instead. Interestingly, the guidance counselor told the parents of the results of a survey of seniors conducted two years earlier at the school in May before commencement. 80% of senior reported that they drank alcoholic beverages at least once in the 30 days before the survery. 80%. My D always told me that she was in the minority of students who don’t drink or use drugs at her VERY high achieving, small, affluent private school. I always commented that more kids probably talked about it than actually did it. I was wrong. Very wrong.

soozievt · March 23, 2006, 10:54am

While this boy seems to have had an alcohol problem, I don’t think in general that a school suspension over getting caught drinking should necessarily derail all applicants. Not all who made that mistake have alcohol problems. I DO NOT condone drinking in high school and we were very strict about supervision with our kids and our kids did not drink. I am just saying that there are SO many students who have a blemish on their school record and NOT ALL of these students are ones with alcohol problems like Lucifer may have had it seems. So, no, I don’t think a disciplinary action with a student in HS should always spell rejection. I don’t think every kid with a disciplinary action has a mental imbalance or whatever another posted called it. I do agree with Berurah that there are certainly so many qualified students with no blemishes on their record and so these kids would and should have a better chance at admissions than those who had a school suspension. And yes, to the reader who asked, school suspensions need to be noted on the application where they ask such questions. I’m simply saying that one infraction does not indicate a kid who is an alcoholic. As quiltguru wrote, surveys show that a large percentage of HS students have had a drink. A student might get caught who has barely ever drank before and I don’t think that needs to spell college rejection. I’m not talking kids who have repeated problems or issues.

I can relate to Quiltguru’s story about the cast party and so forth. We were strict with this stuff as parents. Our kids were not allowed at unsupervised parties or gatherings at homes. We’d check that a parent was present. I am appalled by parents who allow kids to drink in their homes. That is nuts on so many levels. There was an after prom party where we live where the parents (one being on the school board, no less) were not home and had chosen to sleep at a hotel that night (hmm) and it appeared that they wanted it to seem they did not know about the party but they had two kids graduating and I think their idea was to have a drinking party at their house so the kids wouldn’t travel far, etc. NUTS. Anyway, a boy did get alcohol poisoning and kids were smart enough to get him to the hospital. Anyway, my graduating D opted to NOT attend the party, though many of her friends did. She knew what was going to go on and didn’t want to be a part of that, and would know we would not allow it anyway. As far as cast parties, we have gone out of our way to talk to the parents hosting the parties. We have had issues that the parties included sleepovers and were coed and we didn’t want to allow that and we went to lengths to confirm with the parents the actual arrangements of who was in which rooms, etc. before allowing our other D to attend. Our kids knew we checked on everything. We always knew their whereabouts. They also knew for parties and such things, that we talked first with the parents hosting, etc.

Alumother · March 23, 2006, 11:07am

We were not strict with D. We told her she could drink - in moderation and if she never drove. She chose not to drink. She even did a school project on teen drinking.

College is an entirely different environment, as we discovered. No cars, for one thing, so my D’s adherence to our policy of absolutely no alcohol with cars had no impact.

I just want everyone to remember that s**t happens. I probably felt a little smug when D absolutely never got into trouble, model student, etc. Well I am smug no longer.

Even if we all do everything right, s**t happens. These kids are biological beings in their own right. We can only guide. In the end they make their own choices. Whether to drink or not is only one choice. Next they have to choose what careers to try and follow. Then who to marry. Then how to raise their own kids.

So as we gather round the fire, happy with our kids who have not died and left us burning with grief, let’s also give thanks to our good luck and not just to our skills.

berurah · March 23, 2006, 11:35am

Alu~

My intention was NOT to be smug. I have partaken of many meals in which the main course was my own words, and I’m sure I can look forward to many more of them. ;)

I KNOW s*** happens. Happens all the time. Of course. And I am NOT saying that it WON’T happen to my kids.

What I AM saying is that I think kids often receive mixed messages…DON’T do this or that, it’s dangerous. BUT, we KNOW that you WILL (so we EXPECT it).

The fact is that each kid is an individual PERSON who will make his/her own decisions regarding these things…the majority of time, it is neither to the parents’ credit nor to their “fault” that a kid makes a certain choice. In other words, we, as parents, deserve neither the credit NOR the blame for our children’s choices. But yes, I do think that a consistent message consistently sent MAY have a positive effect.

Ironically, my kids have been more discouraged re: drinking by their partaking peers than by anything I’ve said…the xanga journals chronicling up-close photos of fresh vomit have spoken volumes. Somehow, all of those stains on the carpet (and the closely zoomed mounds of it in the clear vacuums) have sort of turned their stomachs. None of my kids has ever been much on puking.

~berurah

A Must Read for Parents/Students: Lessons to be learned from tragedy

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