No means no means you can rape somebody. @momofthreeboys, I donât think you need me to explain.
This is why there is a movement to get rid of no means no.
This was explained in the NY Times link i provided a few posts ago.
We just have to read a few cases to understand what happens if one of the parties has to say no.
I read the article. She claims itâs ratcheting âupâ I claim itâs actually ratcheting down because no matter what someone still has to say ânoâ if they donât want to do something.
i am talking about the no means no standard. That you have to say noâŠ
Silly dstark, you donât understand. If she didnât say no, it isnât rape! Semiconscious? Hey, she didnât say no. Terrified into silence? She didnât say no, itâs not rape. Pay no attention to scientists doing science.
CF, lol!
We have to be blunt.
Those who advocate the no means no standard say raping is ok. Thatâs the effect of that standard.
That is a fact!
I really hate arguing facts.
I was talking to my son in law yesterday. He said the last week has been an historical week. It was a week his generation will always remember. He feels really good right now. Me too.
Michigan released how they handled cases over a 12 month period. I think there were 129 complaints. 27 ended up in a tribunal type format. The accusers won 11 times. There was one expulsion.
I read that the accusers are going to win cases they shouldnât win because a proponderance of evidence standard is used. Is that really happening in a major way?
11 cases went for the accuser. 15 went for the accused. One is undecided. I would think the results would lean more towards the accuser.
I would think you would have to look at each case individually. If colleges donât break the rules there should be no advantage one way or the other and the iota of a percent needed to adjudicate would be the only factor and that would be based on the witnesses and evidence and the testimony.
Um, that law was passed to save gasoline, not to save lives. Further, thereâs little evidence a 55mph speed limit saves lives as opposed to driving 65mph. (If itâd said something like 85mph iâd be a bit more charitable toward the author.)
âTo critics who object that millions of people are having sex without getting unqualified assent and arenât likely to change their ways, heâd reply that millions of people drive 65 miles per hour despite a 55-mile-per-hour speed limit, but the law still saves lives.â
What a crummy analogy. Highway driving happens in public. People adjust to a speed limit because everyone, including the police, can see them violating it. Police use radar to verify that people are breaking the law. So yeah, lower the speed limit, and on average, the traffic will move more slowly.
Acts taking place in private bedrooms with just two people present are awfully different. Putting up signs announcing a change in rules and expecting people to respect the new âspeed limitâ is absurd.
Just back from visiting a Third World country and I see that you all are still at it with no real change in positions
I only read back about 100 posts to catch up but I have a few comments.
I had a lot to think about on this trip as I witnessed interactions. I wish I could give some specifics but we had a large group with lots of college age (and early 20s) boys and girls. One of the interactions involved a group that we have discussed on this thread, and may even have involved one of the individuals in one of these cases.
I have said many times that part of me like âno means noâ laws and part of me likes âyes means yesâ. I really do think it depends on the situation. As CF pointed out earlier today, it is rape if a woman canât respond and someone has sex with them. On the other hand âYMYâ poses problems. Letâs say a guy and girl are really going at it with foreplay. The guys says âcan I take off your sweater?â She says yes and he fondles her. He then says âcan I take off your pants and underwear so we can fool around?â She says yes, that she would love that. He rubs her genitals and she expresses her appreciation. He then digitally penetrates her and suddenly she says she didnât want to go that far. He immediately stops and is perplexed but says âsorry, when you said I could take your underwear and fool around I thought that meant it was okâ.
She wakes up the next day and decides to file a rape report since she lives in a âYMYâ state. Did he rape her? Should he have said âI know I am rubbing you and that you are enjoying it. Can I stick it in another inch?â Does he need to ask permission to switch from 1 to 2 digits? In my opinion there is an implied permission to digitally insert when you have granted permission to remove your underwear and âfool aroundâ. In no way do I see this as a rape and will think anyone that does is crazy.
Now, how about if the guy pulls his hand from under her sweater and looks at it and says "donât you want these friends to move down south below the border? She says âheck yesâ and removes her pants. He then sticks his fingers in the back door and she is appalled and leaves. Is this rape? if so, how is it different? to me it is different, but I am not sure how to legally draw the line. In this case did he rape her?
In summary: I would like to see YMY in cases where a person is unable to give consent but NMN in cases where they are able to clearly consent and there is some history (like a couple). I am not sure what to do about the inbetween cases and realize this is probably not a workable solution.
Which brings me to my point about consent. I think part of the problem is implied consent. If a wife is walking up the stairs in front of her husband and he âgoosesâ her and says âwanna fool around?â is that sexual assault? How about if a guy does it to a girl he has dated for months? How about a guy on the first date? To me there is a difference in the amount of implied consent.
This is a poor example for you. He didnât think he had âimplied consent.â He thought he had actual explicit verbal consent. Itâs not rape if the person reasonably thought he had consent. Iâd say this guyâs belief, based on what she said, is that she agreed to the penetration. Now, if she said he could take off her sweater, and then he penetrated her with his finger, that would be one thing, but he thought he had her enthusiastic agreement.
These examples are different. If thereâs any consent, itâs implied. And I say to a guy, if you do something like that without getting consent beforehand, you had better be damned sure she agrees and consents, because if she doesnât, you are assaulting her. And if you say âhow can he possibly be expected to read her mind,â I say, HE CANâT, so heâd better ask if there is any doubt at all.
@TV4caster: Yes means yes is not the criminal standard, itâs the college tribunal standard. Filing a criminal complaint based on failure to say yes wouldnât do anything.
The criminal standard is higher than just no means no, though. Nobody sane thinks that the Berkeley John Doe could legally walk up and stick his hands in the womanâs underwear, just because she hadnât said no yet.
@âCardinal Fangâ: If you want to get technical, the criminal standard isnât no means no, itâs distinct as to each statute. I didnât think there was any need to be that granular to respond to TV4casterâs point though.
I wonder what educational interventions would actually be effective in altering the statistics. Like @momofthreeboys I am frankly skeptical that the Yes Means Yes standard is going to effect much change as it seems to just be the flip side of No Means No which has been around for ages. (If Iâm wrong - come back and point it out to me in a few years. Iâd be happy to wrong on this one.)
Weâre talking young people at peak fertility, virility and beauty - perhaps drunk, lonely, grades-stressed and away from home for the first time. Time to par-tay! Look up UCSB Party on youtube to get an idea of the crowd that youâre trying to change with slogans and revised campus policy. In some respects youâre trying to change the flow of the mighty river of evolution. I think the frank sex education as practiced in CA middle and high school is a good step. But I donât know if stats are better out west than elsewhere. ?? Perhaps there are things that could be learned from the schools or locations that have better stats than those found in the Brown study which focused on upstate New York?
LOL, I was playing the Isla Vista UCSB clip and my home-for-the-summer college junior just strolled by, chuckled and said Yup itâs a college party. He just told me to watch the Shmacked Michigan one, oh my goodness if you watch it turn the volume down if you are easily offended
My wife went to UCSB for a couple of years. She said the 1 in 5 assaulted number âŠyepâŠtrue. 
Yes means yes is probably going to expand to high school students in California.
âWith about 240,000 students attending UC campuses, the systemâs rate of reported sexual assaults last year was about 1 per 1,200 students. That would equate to about 1 sexual assault report per 240 students over the course of five years.
âŠ
California State University, Fullerton, reported zero sexual assaults on or near campus between 2011 and 2013. About 38,000 students attend CSU Fullerton.â
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article2617347.html#storylink=cpy
1 in 240 is a lot less than 1 in four.
But: sexual assault report rate â sexual assault rate.
I would have thought this was obvious, really.