@northwesty, 2 percent a year was my number. 
Looks like education should start in middle school.
I think I agree with you. We have argued so much in the past, I am not sure.
Just to be clear, 10% of men did not admit to being rapists. 10% answered questions in a survey that the researchers coded as rape. This includes things like pressuring the victim without force by showing displeasure or getting angryâ along with taking advantage of incapacitate victimes. It is interesting that few did this more than once (as reported on the survey). Does that mean they realized it was wrong? Or are they not being truthful?
I was always skeptical of the validity of Lisakâs findings as applicable to college students in general. More research is needed. And more education.
I know 2% is your number. : ) I figure 2% âballparkâ includes 1-1.5%, which is my surmise number.
But the non-serial insight (if true) is the important point and likely explains a lot.
That would mean that college campuses arenât much populated with sociopath rape monsters. But 10% of college guys may cross the line when immature, inexperienced and drunk. And then most of that 10% learn and donât repeat.
Like the Vandy football players. Those guys are unlikely to become rapists unless (i) they are 19 years old and (ii) they had downed something like 20 drinks.
@northwesty, i agree with your sentiments. I am not with you on the Vandy guys.
When we look at polls, there is a drop off in the number of sexual assaults of grad students compared to undergrad students.
I think as more and more surveys are released people will start pushing to educate boys and girls at younger ages. Then there will be a pushback. People will be against young people getting educated about sex and violence.
Education will win out in about 20 years. I will be almost 80 if I am alive.
Iâm wondering why you think the young drunk guys who rape are learning not to rape. They get very drunk, they rape someone, there are no consequences, so why wouldnât they do it again? This is a serious question. Young women learn how not to be raped because being raped is awful. But Iâm not seeing why getting drunk and raping someone would be perceived as awful a second time, for those inclined to do it a first time.
@CardinalFang, I would think some males realized how out of control they were while drunk and try their best to not get that drunk again. Will they always succeed? No, but they are making the attempt to ensure they donât ever do it again.
I think in this regard males and females are probably similar. A woman who gets drunk and has a one night stand just might decide she isnât going to get drunk and have a one night stand again but then again a few will do it again. Same for the guys. I really donât think there are accidental rapists so come from that perspective and I believe that rapists will rape more than once.
The reluctance of women to report and of prosecutors to take on these cases due to problems of proof, has resulted in unaccountability for far too long. If there is no deterrent we cannot expect that rape will miraculously cease. I believe the âeducationâ that will be most effective in reducing the incidence of rape is consequences being imposed either by a reformed judicial system or in the college tribunals. Without some measure of accountability things will stay static.
HarvestMoon1, what about educating the guys at younger ages? 10-13?
This is in addition to consequences for raping.
I think itâs pretty obvious that some young women are very conflicted. I think itâs a mistake to think of this as a âmaleâ problemâŠa big mistake. I think the fact that our police and judicial system already is based on due process and civil rights, has subpoena capabilities and investigative capabilities and punitive processes⊠clearly point to not establishing a âparallelâ system within our colleges and universities. They can follow but they should not lead other than with what they âdoâ which is education.
I am not sure @dstark. When I think back to health classes in middle school I seem to remember that it wasnât taken all that seriously. I think at that age (10-13) children are still learning the basics about their sexuality and the whole thing is not something they are really comfortable talking about. Rape is a pretty serious subject but in thinking about it maybe the whole issue of consent could be introduced at that age.
What I do know is that it is extremely vital for DH and myself to educate our son about the definition of consent and the dangers of engaging in intimate activity while intoxicated BEFORE he steps foot on a college campus. I am not leaving that up to any college to undertake that education for me.
I had a sex education class when I was 10. I wasnât comfortable about it, but I listened. I thought it was a good class.
But you are a good listener @dstark.
Lol! You must be too.
Just to be clear, here are the acts that were classified as rape:attempted or completed sexual intercourse by threats of bodily harm or actual force, oral sex by threats or bodily harm or actual force, and sexual intercourse with someone too intoxicated to resist. Pressuring the victim was not included.
A female student was a little tipsy and put her hands down the pants of one of our male floor mates. The act was not encouraged, she just went for it. There were laughs and more beers and everyone seemed to survive. In the new world should she have been reported to campus police for sexual assault? Expelled? Offenders list for life? She was s friend known to everyone on the hall and life just went on. If the guy had responded to the sudden friendliness with some friendliness of his own - should he be hauled into campus police the next day if she regrets her own actions and his? Does âshe grabbed my ___ firstâ count as alternate means of communicating Yes Means Yes? I mean it does seem like sheâs indicating a kind of approval. Or are we saying that we canât count on drunk females to be responsible for their actions?
The student conduct codes apply equally to men and women, so certainly your floor mate could report. Whether he âshouldâ is his call. Whether the girl would be expelled depends on each individual school. My guess is probably not if it was the first time she was reported for this sort of thing. Offenders list for life? No, the college tribunal system operates outside our criminal justice system and I am assuming the boy was not a minor.
My thinking is that the schools are trying to impose a change in culture on their campuses. Some people think this is necessary and others think differently. But at the end of the day âit is what it isâ and students have to navigate it. My best advice to my own son and daughter is â âtouching someone in a private area without their express consent is a serious matter. You might think it is funny but they just may not agree with you. With todayâs campus climate that could get you in trouble. That âtroubleâ could include an interruption of your college career or worse. So just donât do it.â
Does this sort of thinking take away some of the light hearted antics that many engaged in during our college years? Yes, I think it does. I can live with that if these efforts result in a reduction in the incidence of sexual assault.
@patertrium, one question for you to help provide an answer to your âshould she have been reported to campus police for sexual assault?â question: If a male student had gotten tipsy and stuck his hand down the pants of a woman and grabbed her crotch without her previous consent,* should he have been reported for sexual assault? If your answer is no to my hypothetical, then presumably your answer to the real-life situation would also be no. My answer to my hypothetical is yes, and therefore my answer to the real-life situation is yes.**
- Or a male student sticking his hand down the pants of another male student, or a female student sticking her hand down the pants of another female student. Itâs the same act no matter the genders of the participants, after all, no matter whether the social acceptance of those acts may be different.
** That said, grabbing someoneâs genitals is materially different than attempted or successful penetration without consent. There is a continuum of sexual assaults, and all sexual assaults are not equal. But is what you described a sexual assault? Yes, of course it is.
Punching someone in the snoot is not as bad as beating them to within an inch of their life, but both are battery. We wouldnât expect the snoot-puncher to get the same punishment as the person who almost killed someone.
Similarly, reaching down someoneâs pants is not as bad as raping them, but both are sexual assault. We wouldnât expect the handsy person to get the same discipline as therapist: Handsy would probation at worst for a first offense, maybe just a stern talking-to and a warning, whereas Rapist surely should get suspension or expulsion.
So the guy should report if he wants to. Ms. Hands is way out of line and needs to stop it.
Itâs a broad array of behaviors and attitudes to address. I bring up Ms. Grabby Hands as a personal example of something on par to behaviors leading up to the the Occidental expulsion. That appeared to be a sad symptom of âvictimâ advocacy over-reach - a professor encouraging a complaint filing for something that should have gone down as a life lesson involving drunken college high jinx. http://â â â â â â /yiZAgr
On the other end of the spectrum, I knew a female student who was actually the victim of assault by members of a sports team at her university. She did not report. Part of it was she was drunk and she feared not being believed or maybe even being blamed. Plus there was the status and popularity of the sports team in addition to their wealthy family connections. She was extremely traumatized by the incident and didnât want to be further traumatized by the system and the process. This wasnât high jinx - this was awful. If a change in culture or anything could be done to prevent this kind of incident (or better address it if done) - it should be.