“I’m wondering why you think the young drunk guys who rape are learning not to rape. They get very drunk, they rape someone, there are no consequences, so why wouldn’t they do it again? This is a serious question.”
Fang – If this JAMA study is correct, it seems that campus acquaintenance rape falls into the category of things some college guys do when “young and stupid and drunk.” Although the likelihood of punishment is low, the study says they don’t continue doing it.
The study says that 8% of the guys committed rape during college and that 75% of guys who committed college rape did so during only one academic year. Guys who had raped prior to college were not the guys who were at greatest risk to rape while at college. Could be that there is an inexperienced college student “red zone” that applies to both the victims and also the attackers.
So I’m liking even more my idea of lowering the legal drinking age to the 12/31 of the year in which you turn 18. Total prohibition (which is strictly enforced) for 1st semester college freshmen. After that, they will likely be fine to drink wine and beer.
Was the one academic year when they were freshmen? I’m skeptical of this idea. I have to say, I just don’t think any of the statistics are good enough to guide a comprehensive response. That’s a problem.
I think the statistics are good enough. The more surveys we see, the more we see the numbers are similar.
What I don’t understand is why the solutions are either society does education or punishment or something else.
@northwesty, we can have a comprehensive solution where we educate guys and girls. We can have tribunals and have a court system to handle sexual assaults and rapes. We can do all of these things. We don’t have to look for an either or solution. And we tweak what we are doing as we learn what works and what doesn’t.
UCSD screwed up. Fair proceedings are very important. UCSD will change what they are doing.
We send our kids to these schools. We pay big money to send our kids to these schools. Then we pretend the schools can’t figure things out when it comes to tribunals. “Duh…the schools are so dumb. People at the schools are so dumb. Where is my checkbook? The tuition check is due”. Lol
It’s not their core business, I would not expect them to operate criminal based “tribunals.” It’s not that they are dumb…it’s simply that it’s not their business. They are in the business of education so it makes sense to run seminars, do surveys, counsel kids…things at least somewhat related to their core business. I would no more expect a marketing person to be able to design the infrastructure of a skyscraper. I marketing person might have a basic idea about how they keep from toppling over, but that does not make a marketing person capable to executing the plans. A marketing person might be able to draw a skyscraper, but that’s about it.
@momofthreeboys, it doesn’t have to be a core part of their business. Be a little more creative in your thinking.
A school can have an undergrad school, grad school, law school, med school, research, classroom education, housing, food, sports teams, music programs, theater, counseling, libraries… … Etc.
Schools can join together and form tribunals. Come on.
“We can have tribunals and have a court system to handle sexual assaults and rapes.
We can do all of these things.”
Stark – Unfortunately, we don’t have unlimited time and resources.
Most guys will go unpunished no matter what you do. That’s the proof problem that will never go away. Most college rapists stop raping (if JAMA is correct) even though they usually go unpunished. The Canada study says you can prevent a lot of rapes by educating and training girls and bystanders. And we know alcohol is a gigantic contributing factor
So please list your priorities in order. My list is:
Canada style training for incoming college students.
Change drinking laws to be more sensible and effective.
Improve process and procedures for rape in the criminal justice system.
Commit resources to upgrading college tribunal adjudication processes (a la Dear Colleague).
@northwesty I could be with you on #1if it could be shown that it was more effective than the types of training already in place say at UC or others. Is there data that shows changes that were effected by the implemented training within Canada? And is there comparative data that shows that the Canadian style training is more effective than say what UC (or other large US schools) already puts in place? That is - it makes no sense to spend money changing if you may already have something in some schools or areas which is already effective. And it ties to the question I asked earlier - is there anyone or any part of the country already doing a good job at prevention?
2 Drinking Policy - does anyone have a drinking policy that actually works? If yes - then again - then follow the leader.
3 Changing the legal process and procedures - sure. But remember that out of 36,000 students at Cal State Fullerton no rapes were reported in a recent year. So the assumption that these studies are making is that hundreds or thousands of students are suffering in silence. I doubt that a change to legal procedure would make a large change in the numbers at Cal State Fullerton (or many of the other UC's with low numbers).
Here’s a description of the Canada prevention program/study. The results are significant. Risk reduction of 2/3rds. How does it compare with what U.S. schools are doing?
Women in many cultures including American are often brought up to listen to their elders and especially to men and to not be assertive regarding their own needs. Kudos to the Canadians for bringing physical and verbal assertiveness skills to the aid of young women. Sounds like the striking results don’t fit a particular politically correct narrative.
The results are great. Society can do more. Society should do more. Society will do more.
It’s a slow process.
If we start with the kids at ages 10-13, we will prevent lots of problems. The kids are interested in sex education, violence, and how to treat each other. They will listen.
If the class was about Greek Mythology, we would lose a lot of kids.
People are afraid of change. This issue has been going on for thousands of years. I doubt what we say on CC is going to affect this.
This board is getting a little boring. Nobody’s fault.
The board is becoming more interesting to me when someone actually notes evidence of a success compared to just wringing hands about the latest retrospective data set that’s two orders of magnitude different from actual reported incidents.
@paternium I agree that this sort of thing can be useful but it has it limits. As a petite woman of barely 5’1 and 117 lbs all the physical assertiveness training in the world is not going to help me against the vast majority of men. My D is barely 5’3 and 110 lbs so same for her. We look to other protections like carrying pepper spray when we have to venture out alone in the evening.
And I do think these sorts of things are short term solutions with the long term solution being to “reduce our need to defend ourselves.” I mean how sad of a statement is it that our daughters have to engage in some sort of “combat training” to defend themselves against some men? Something is very wrong here.
In the hazing thread, I posted a video of a FSU quarterback hitting a woman in the face in a bar. The woman isn’t puny. She tried to hit him first in his face. Then he hit her. He could have killed her.
@Harvestmoon1 My suspicion is that the physical training just gives people the confidence to be assertive as well as strategic (buddy system etc) and that rarely does the prevention mechanism actually come down to wrist hold or eye gouge. Years ago I found myself in a class that had Pamela Butler’s book on assertiveness as part of the curriculum. It opened my eyes to just how difficult self-advocacy and limit-setting could be for a gender raised to nurture/take care of the feelings of others.
