A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

Parents Forum
301

<p>I’m from the deep south, and I think the kids down here do have a leg up the OP’s daughter in the NE, but they don’t take advantage of it. Like most, it seems, they focus their efforts on Ivy League schools and other top 20 Universities, not schools like Bowdoin or Williams, where I think an ED app might get a smart southern kid a very strong looksy. </p>

<p>The most glaring examples I’ve seen of this is the Barnard and Columbia College thing. My radar was up on Barnard because our niece who just graduated from Columbia told us she wished she had gone to Barnard instead. My daughter also danced with a Columbia student over the summer, who told her he would transfer to Barnard if they would just let him. As most here probably know, it has the advantages of a small LAC with full access to Columbia. Sadly, it’s much overlooked down here.</p>

<p>I recently spoke with a mom whose daughter had applied to 26 (not a typo) colleges. Her top choice was Columbia, yet her mom was not familiar with Barnard. Her daughter was rejected by Columbia and is now a junior at Wellesley. Apparently some Chinese dignitary’s wife attended Wellesley, hence it made the list.</p>

<p>One of my D’s friends was rejected last week by her top choice, Columbia, and she is completely devastated. Yet, she was accepted to Barnard, but seems disinterested. She’s actually considering another slightly higher ranked school instead that she has never even visited!</p>

<p>And this from a dad on CC in the latest cycle: “While I understand the Barnard/Columbia realities in terms of theatre, it really came down to a comparison between name ID, school rankings, overall reputation, etc. So she would clearly not rank Barnard itself overall well versus a host of other schools. Barnard is virtually unknown here in FL to most people. My D had never even heard of it independently before I discussed it with her as an option.”<br>
Columbia was at the top of this theatre major’s list, but nevermind that all of Columbia’s undergrad theatre classes are taught at Barnard!</p>

<p>I guess my point is an outsider may gain a geographic advantage, but they often don’t know enough about the good schools outside their region to take advantage of their advantage.</p>

302

<p>Goodness, if she’s worried about name recognition, just put “Barnard College, Columbia University”. It’s what I do with Radcliffe. (Actually because I hate the death of Radcliffe - I applied to Radcliffe, (last class to do so), but graduated from Harvard.)</p>

303

<p>I think one of the whole points of the college search process is discovery – and that includes researching and learning about schools outside of your existing knowledge base. Most people know of the Ivies, the sports powerhouses, and colleges in their local vicinity. When my kid started the college search, I had never heard of schools like Beloit and Rhodes and Harvey Mudd and Occidental and Grinnell. Learning about these schools and their strengths and reputations was just as important a piece of the college search as taking the SATs. Your point, arwarw, is well taken, but doesn’t speak well of these otherwise intelligent people </p>

304

<p>

</p>

<p>Madame Chiang Kai Shek, Soong Mei-ling. Class of '17, IIRC. The reason why Black Jack Pershing’s 3-star battle flag used to hang in the Admissions office, and the dorm common rooms were peppered with striking Chinese artifacts. :slight_smile: And there were a significant number of students from Hong Kong and Taiwan long before the current explosion of Chinese student attendance at such schools.</p>

<p>Fascinating woman from a fascinating family.</p>

305

<p>“And this from a dad on CC in the latest cycle: “While I understand the Barnard/Columbia realities in terms of theatre, it really came down to a comparison between name ID, school rankings, overall reputation, etc. So she would clearly not rank Barnard itself overall well versus a host of other schools. Barnard is virtually unknown here in FL to most people. My D had never even heard of it independently before I discussed it with her as an option.””</p>

<p>I don’t know where in FL that CC Dad is, but where I am, everybody knows about Barnard!</p>

306

<p>I also wanted to add that according to my daughter, during college-day in the south, the HYP guys, along with UVA, Vandy, UNC, and others get their own classrooms and it’s standing room only for rotating 25 minute sessions. </p>

<p>On the other hand, The Amherst, Bowdoin, Barnard etc. reps are going to be over in the gym alone or talking amongst themselves. You can visit with them for as long as you like. </p>

307

<p>Love your post, arwawr. :slight_smile: Did your niece give you specifics? As the parent of a proud Barnard alum, I’d note that Barnard is another LAC admission stats in the under 25% range, with very holistic admission standards-- I’ve gotten fairly good at predicting admissions over the years by looking at the EC’s of CC’ers and how they present them… Pretty much packed with local students, too (NY, NJ), – though it’s possible that a lot of them are coming in ED. </p>

308

<p>^^^ She said the Columbia U bureaucracy could be a hassle at times and the Barnard students seemed to get better support with that. Also better dorms. She also liked the camaraderie at Barnard. She was the type to paint her face blue and ride the subway to the football games. She also played on the frisbee team. Aside from that, she said there was not too much difference - she said for the most part in her classes, on her frisbee team and otherwise she didn’t know or would have a hard time recalling which girls were at Barnard and which were at Columbia College.</p>

309

<p>I totally agree with mamilion. </p>

<p>I also advise my peers that if they feel that they cannot write a student a positive letter, let the student know that perhaps they are not the best person to write the letter. I also inform the students that their best letter may not necessarily come from the person who gave them the best grade (as kids seem to thing that if they aced Mr. Smith’s/Ms. Smith’s class that it will automatically mean a great rec). </p>

<p>I don’t give recommendation letters to students nor do I let them read my letters. I think I am very thoughtful and very thorough with my process, and I totally understand that the letters and the application peak for the student when they are not in the room to speak for themselves. I have them fill out a brag sheet, conduct an interview regarding their brag sheets, asking them/ their parents what are they comfortable with me disclosing and addressing issues that may be flags. Since we meet as grade teams, I also get to listen to the “kid talk” and hear what their teachers say about them. If a student does not trust me to write on their behalf, I do advise them to see someone else.</p>

310

<p>Wow Sybbie - I hope the kids appreciate the time and effort that you put into your letters. :slight_smile: </p>

311

<p>Our counselors had a similar process as Sybbie, they were able to write good letters because of the way the process was set up. My older son was shown his letter by his counselor, though not given a copy. Younger son never saw his. (We thanked both GCs profusely, because they do a great job, and are hugely overworked.) Younger son’s math teacher showed him his letter - and by the way he was a B+ student in math but adored this teacher - the letter was fabulous as good as you could possibly expect - from a teacher who really got that my kid understood math, but had processing issues that made the follow through problematic at times. </p>

312

<p>@arwawr – that comment about bureaucracy is pretty much in line with what my daughter said – and what I observed – very stark contrast, actually. Students on one side of the street with nothing but praise for their college administration, students on the other with nothing but grumbles and gripes.</p>

<p>Over the years my kids attended about 5 different colleges for undergrad, and one thing that I saw that was very important – but never mentioned or considered in choosing a school – was simply the attitude and relations between a school’s administration and students and/or faculty. At some schools the students seem to really like the administration and there’s an air of respect and harmony – at others there is tension – and sometimes there is all out war. (To the point of demonstrations and strikes over administration policy).</p>

<p>Anyway… off topic in relation to high stakes admissions – but definitely an important and typically overlooked factor in selecting a college and determining college preference. </p>

313

<p>Ok, I have resisted for 15 pages but I can’t take it any more. I can’t wait until I get to the end of this thread before posting. There is a massive amount of ‘projecting’ going on here from posters who reflexively assume that the word ‘white’ in a post gives them the right to make all sorts of assumptions and, subsequently, ad hominem attacks against the author. </p>

<p>I don’t care how many times you’ve seen someone on CC try to blame a football player or a student of color or a rancher from Wyoming or a juggler of chainsaws on a unicycle for their child’s rejection; I have seen those posts too, they are irrational. However, this is no excuse for being obtuse and presuming to be a mind reader on an independent thread that gives you the ‘feeling’ that the OP might share a similar irrationality simply by virtue of using the word ‘white’.</p>

<p>It was perfectly obvious to me that the OP was referring to an over-representation of a certain demographic in the applicant pool in relation to the admitted pool. I wish good luck to anyone who would like to try to make a persuasive case that an unhooked middle class white girl from the burbs of some northeast city, with college educated parents and not enrolled in a private or magnate feeder school, and not affiliated by way of faculty, is not heavily over-represented in the applicant pool in relation to the admitted pool at highly selective northeast colleges. Schools do not, generally, make this information public, so nothing can be proven. However, I would still like to see one of the know-it-alls on this thread try to make the case.</p>

<p>I get it, I really do. These are priveledged kids, generally speaking. It is distasteful and even repulsive to some people to use the word “disadvantaged” in relation to them (or, for some people apparently, in the same sentence as the word “white”). But if we are speaking statistically in the context of ‘over-representation in the applicant pool in relation to the admitted pool’, disadvantaged is exactly what they are. </p>

<p>Paradoxically to the ad hominems the OP is suffering, the main point supported by the OP’s comments is that if anyone is to ‘blame’ for his daughters admissions results, it is other northeastern SWFs. There are too many applying in relation to admission slots, and the concomitant ‘impressivenes of application’ required in said demographic makes it that much harder to stand out. What is the 25/75 SAT range for this specific group? Does anyone want to try and make the case that it is not materially higher than the published all-student range? </p>

<p>Someone might try to make the case that the elimination of certain institutional goals would open up more slots for these, presumably, more academically worthy applicants, and that would be a good thing. While this would be, tautologically, a good thing for the admission odds of these students, making the argument that it is a GOOD thing more broadly is an entirely different matter. There is scant evidence in the OP that this was the argument being made, and the proliferation of straw men on this thread attacking such an argument is what has exhausted me into writing this post.</p>

<hr>

<p>PS As Cal Newport has elegantly explained, it is not about what you have done but how hard it is to comprehend how you managed to do it that leads to ‘impressiveness’. It doesn’t matter how monumental a scouting accomplishment is, no one is ever confused as to how it came to be. “Failed simulation effect” is alive and well in explaining why adcoms systematically discount accomplishments acheived through scouting. As much as I am chagrined by the fact, I cannot deny it. Ergo, I was not the least bit surprised by the OP’s daughter’s results.</p>

314

<p>

</p>

<p>And when you fall into that “privileged” (for lack of a better word) demographic it’s hard to communicate personal challenges and obstacles overcome without sounding whiney. </p>

<p>D has overcome (or at least is successfully dealing with) a fairly major speech disorder, something that had a profound effect on her childhood and continues to affect her daily life and how people perceive her at first impressions. But she doesn’t want “overcoming a disability” to be a part of the “package” that she presents on college applications because, in her words, “most people think that stuttering is such a first world problem.”</p>

315

<p>Rough numbers . . . 35,000 apply to Harvard and 2,000 are accepted - 50% non white and 50% male/female ratio so ROUGHLY 500 white females are admitted. No matter how you look at it or “roll the dice” those odds are not good. However . . . roughly 500 white females are accepted each year, this student just wasn’t one of them.</p>

<p>Semantically terms like “need not apply” and “shut out” recall times when people of certain ethnic heritage actually were shut out of employment and housing be it Irish, Italians, Jews or African Americans, or . . . . Not “There are a lot of you who we would love to rent to but we only have 500 units available,” but “You and your kind are not allowed to be here.” IRISH NEED NOT APPLY I feel like if posters starts with a less blunt premise, the message of poor odds for highly qualified students would be more readily received.</p>

316

<p>I for one am completely sympathetic to hear that a kid from Brookline High or Newton North did not get into Harvard or MIT or wherever else. Completely. It wasn’t the kid’s choice to settle in a Boston suburb surrounded by academically ambitious kids in a good school system with guidance counselors who are experienced at this sort of thing, plus the fact that the kid is competing with kids from Roxbury Latin and Boston Latin et al. Plus professor’s kids, and the huge tip factor that goes to a promising kid from a terrible HS in the area with a disadvantaged population. etc.</p>

<p>But even the very disappointed kid can understand that Harvard and MIT don’t want to become “fifth year of HS” by admitting all the fantastic and talented kids within a 20 mile radius- and they likely could fill the class with the locals. So far so good- and I’m sympathetic.</p>

<p>It’s the whining about the unfairness of it all once you’ve removed the geographic issue (and I think everyone understands that you can’t run a world class university by pulling from inside the route 128 corridor) that starts to irritate me. The odds of getting into Harvard are terrible for everyone. The fact that it might be less terrible for an Af-Am male from Seattle with 750 SAT’s than it is for a white girl from Belmont MA with 750 SAT’s is not a problem that keeps me up at night. I think I feel worse for the tens of thousands of kids trapped in truly terrible K-12 school systems with zero hope of escape than I do for the white girl who with a little gumption can either go to her free ride NMS college and soar with the eagles- or get on an airplane and go to U Chicago- one of the bet universities in the world. And if the family can’t afford Chicago- which is not a crime- the D can take a gap year and figure out the other “we want you so much we will pay you to attend” merit colleges (of which there are at least a dozen off the top of my head) and go from there.</p>

<p>Really- so much angst over the unfairness of it all. And Harvard being overrun by so many Af-Am and Hispanic men. Is that the operative premise here?</p>

317

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t think that was the OP’s point. I agree she may have stated her case in a way that provoked all of these attacks. I don’t think Harvard is being overrun by anyone, but while they are trying to balance a class, which is of course their right, they are trying to pick a mix. If there are 10 spots for group A and 100 apply vs. 10 spots for group B and 200 apply, the applicants from group B will have a harder time among their group. I don’t think it is racist to say that, it just how things are. </p>

<p>I find it interesting to see the difference in how this situation is discussed for undergrad schools vs. how it is discussed in Law School admissions forums, which are for me the only two that I have seen personally. For some reason, In LS admissions, it is very matter of fact how things are, and their version of Naviance or whatever tracking program your school uses, clearly has URM, International or Non-Traditional as category so potential students can see where they fall depending on where they fall within certain parameters. </p>

<p>Just for example purposes:</p>

<p>

</a> </p>

318

<p>It is not racist to lay out the challenges of creating a class which has enough potential Classics majors to keep your professors of Greek literature happy while also having enough oboe players to fill your orchestra while also making sure that your entering class isn’t entirely filled with white male graduates of Choate and Horace Mann.</p>

<p>That’s not racist.</p>

<p>The presumption that the girl in question was passed over by a handful of schools because she had the triple whammy of being female, white, and from the Northeast I think is what gets people aggravated. She had the triple whammy of NOT being “different enough” from hundreds of other applications AND applying to schools close to home where she had zero geographic distinction AND applying for an already competitive and crowded academic field where the types of schools she applied to have their pick of the best and the brightest. Her being female and white were the least of her problems IMHO. She could have been an Af Am male in Chicago shut out by Northwestern, U Chicago and Wash U but admitted to Stanford. Is that racist?</p>

319

<p>I find it hard to call it “attacks,” in general. There simply is no sweet and easy way to say, wake up and smell the coffee. Every kid and parent wants to think they have a great shot, because they worked had and did this and that in hs. But getting into a tippy top is not a “reward” for being tops in your school, not like ‘student of the year’ or ‘most volunteer hours’ or some other special award from the small group of faculty/admin/peers who know you, have known you over several years. </p>

<p>Harvard, the perennial example, says that, in the end, they have 3x as many super finalists as seats available. Imagine what that means: culled from a vast pool of high achievers, down to 6,000 4.0 (or close enough) kids with rigor enough, scores high enough, respect-garnering ECs, and solid self-presentations in the rest of their apps. I keep thinking, if you cannot grasp what this sort of competition means, you aren’t starting in the right place. Sorry. Of course we try to be understanding that there is disappointment. But this is how it is. </p>

320

<p>There is a presumption that female, white, Northeasterners are alike, and that diversity in any meaningful sense derives from race.</p>