<p>I’ve read the stuff the schools say they want. I’ve sat in admissions presentations where the schools say the kind of candidates they look for. Nowhere do they ever say that everyone with those particular stats or qualities will be admitted. Anyone who spends any time looking at the statistics which are provided showing how few students get in should EVER be “surprised” at a rejection. Disappointed, sure. Sad, yeah, I get it. Surprised? No. Angry? Definitely not. </p>
<p>If a kid is “surprised” at an Ivy rejection, someone in that student’s life has not properly prepared or advised them, or the student has chosen to be purposely obtuse. It is absolutely no secret that not even all the kids with “perfect stats” are accepted, so no matter how “deserving” a candidate is, he should absolutely know and understand that there are no guarantees and this his application has a very likely chance of being rejected.</p>
<p>I remember hearing an anecdote a couple of years ago about a high schooler’s visit to Harvard. The report was that the student guide looked at the tour group and said something like, “You know, none of you are actually going to get in here.” At the time, my thought was “■■■!” Now, my thought is “■■■!..but true.” I’ve learned something in this process, I guess. </p>
<p>But it seems they are reading only what they want to (or as Nrbsd4 says, they are being purposely obtuse). Application trends are readily available online for all of these coveted schools. If the kids and their parents have even a basic understanding of statistics (which, it goes without saying, they ought to), they can see that their odds are very, vey low under the best of circumstances. They do not in any way have a “good shot.”</p>
<p>Well, I think most kids know someone with similar stats who either did or didn’t check the boxes in question. They are basing their conclusions on their experiences. </p>
<p>If I have used the word surprised, I was wrong. I don’t think it should be surprising. Disheartening, disappointing, upsetting, all of those things. But not surprising and not for anyone. If anything I object to those who try to find meaning in the acceptances as if it’s clear that the person was “better” or showed something “special.” That special person could just as easily have ended up in the pile of denied applications. My H’s attitude toward all of this is so what? You’re disappointed and then you move on. It’s not worth agonizing over things you can’t control just because you might suffer a couple of days of disappointment. As long as you have a good list what’s the big deal?</p>
<p>The applicant pool information is not readily available and the information that’s provided at schools that do provide information via naviance is very misleading. Really all that’s obvious is that kids are applying to more and more and more schools. </p>
<p>@Elliemom, that reminds me of my husband’s college reunion. The speaker started off asking, how many of you think you’d get in today? Not a single hand went up but we all had a good laugh. </p>
<p>@3girls3cats, what she can do is really try to get a bead on what the individual colleges do like get behind the words, the adcom-speak. I usually say, see what sorts of kids they tout, (mention on web sites or in PR-type releases,) take a look at the courses and direction in her major, what profs are engaged in, professionally, on their own time. For me, that was a big part of matching D1. She knew her major (and did grad in it,) knew she wanted to continue comm service- and looked hard at both the academic aspects and what these schools facilitated in service and how other kids were engaged. (But honestly, the ‘play hard’ parts were important, too.) </p>
<p>Then you see how you really stack up. Eg, somewhere Stanford says they like kids who have taken an entrepreneurial attitude toward their own educations (and I know there is some shift there, but still-) That doesn’t mean making some money on a venture, certainly not starting a blog, but how you branched out or seemed to take various sorts of academic risks and enjoyed it, made sense of it. Kids who followed the same old/same old path in hs can’t show this.</p>
<p>Someone brought up Brown’s Open Curriculum, I think, Imagine how it goes over if a kid tells them he’d be so happy to just take courses in his major, no need to explore. Yale makes it clear they like leaders- a kid who thinks this means hs titles, “founder” of the pie club, with little action behind it, may not have thought it through enough. Likewise, a kid who thinks it means they only want future business CEOs or Supreme Court justices has missed what else they say about what it means to have influence.</p>
<p>They need us to guide them. </p>
<p>They can glean from supps, too. Obviously Chicago is an extreme example, but you used to be able to see how NYU vetted for kids who answered why they want NYU versus who answered how exciting NYC is. And kids who let on the city was intimidating. You just have to have your eyes open. And plenty of good choices.</p>
<p>They are basing their hopes on the results of other students at their school–often via Naviance. The problem is that admissions are a moving target–and each year it gets tougher. So, say that a student looks at a college’s scattershot graph of admits from their particular high school. Based on that, the school seems to be a match. But actually, it no longer is. So, yes, there’s disappointment. In my experience most kids are not smug about college acceptances. They know how very tough and unpredictable the process is. If anything they are extremely anxious and fear a total shut-out. They are relieved when they get into safeties. </p>
<p>So, since Duke accepted a girl last year who is now splattered all over the internet in various states of undress and will probably be dropping out any day, I think it’s more than a little silly to act as though there is a reasonable explanation to offer another rejected girl from her area. The numbers of qualified candidates is huge and there is a large element of randomness. And, there are mistakes. </p>
<p>If they are “basing their hopes on the results of other students at their school, often via Naviance” (per fondmemories’ post - and man, I wish we had post numbers!), then they are already kids who are on third base, since the vast majority of high schools in this country don’t have Naviance results for “multiple kids getting in elite schools.” Do they not understand this? Do their parents not understand this?</p>
<p>Anyway, one of the very first things you do (IMO) when researching a college is to google the admission rate. And you have to stare at it, and stare at it hard. And, assuming your profile is in a reasonable range to put forth a credible application, if you believe that you have a chance that’s even one percentage point higher than that rate, you’re a fool in my book. Too many of these kids on CC (and some of their parents too) just didn’t believe a 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% admission rate applied to THEM. They honestly didn’t internalize that it means that 80%, 85%, 90%, 95% of candidates are rejected and the vast majority of those candidates were perfectly well qualified. Sorry. I had kids applying to schools at this general level and they had to stare it in the face. That doesn’t mean we weren’t encouraging to them, but we had to prepare them that the best they could hope for was to put forth a credible application and prepare for the worst but hope for the best. </p>
<p>Did she tell them in her app that she was into porn? Or is this one of these flukes that captures attention and is supposed to mean something revealing about admissions? </p>
<p>In my area, there was a big deal made of some Ivy gals who made money at a local strip club. Died down fast. </p>
<p>LF- She wasn’t into porn until she needed tuition money so no. But, she has been interviewed repeatedly in the national media and would have to try real hard to be any less impressive. I assume she looks good on paper. </p>
<p>The Duke porn girl situation reveals absolutely nothing about admissions policies. I note that she’s (shudder) a white female - you know, those types that you can absolutely never find on any college campus.</p>
<p>naviance seems to do a pretty good job of demonstrating how hard it is for even a high stats kid to get into a super elite college - at least at most high schools. And to show that the admits are not always the top right-hand corner data point. The GPA is generally at or almost the highest, but the SATs tend to have a bit wider variation - very high but as likely to be a 1480 as a 1600 (CR+M). The number of red Xs far out-number the green squares, even for the highest stat kids. </p>
<p>I never looked at Naviance. We focused on what made various schools a match in respect to what mattered to them and to us, beyond stats. Both of mine did better in admits than any of their stats would have suggested. And did prove out in their college experiences- though I’ve admitted it was a struggle for D2, who maybe should have gone to a college where she would have been a bigger fish in a smaller pond, without grade deflation. But she’ll grad in May and she grew. has a job lined up and is happily looking forward to the next stage.</p>
<p>My experience with the Naviance scattershots is that in some cases they show a lot of randomness–and that even if you have the “right” stats your odds of admission are not high. My point was that even when Naviance IS encouraging, the student’s results may vary because admissions become more difficult every year. There are some people on this thread who just seem to want to think the worst of high school kids who have been lucky enough to be “qualified” for admission to top schools and aren’t URM or first generation. I was trying to explain that their disappointment when they don’t get in is based on the facts they have (admission odds from their particular school) and not some sort of pampered, grandiose notion that they should always win the trophy. Most of them are not whiners. Most of them don’t feel entitled. Most of them are incredibly hardworking and do not expect to have blessings handed to them. In fact, most of them are utter wrecks and relieved when they get accepted to any school on their list. And, most of them go off to college–whether to their top choice, safety, or somewhere inbetween–full of optimism and open minds. For years I have done alumni interviews for an ivy league school–I have interviewed an amazingly widespread demographic, from super-wealthy private school kids to inner city students with one parent in jail and younger siblings depending on them for financial and emotional support. The experience has left me incredibly impressed by this upcoming generation in all its variations. These kids do not expect to be handed anything. They are, almost to a person, big-hearted, thoughtful, and definitely not smug (ok, maybe with the exception of a couple of the recruited athletes!).</p>
<p>What the school wants in applicants is not the same as a promise to admit every student with those stats. When you and your star student are sitting at those presentations nodding along, thinking “cool, I’ve got that” — there are other parents and kids who are getting another message: “Don’t bother to apply because your don’t have the stats.” That’s why my daughter dropped Tulane from her list – she was very eager to attend a local presentation, but the message she got was that her test scores were too low. So she passed on the free app and looked elsewhere. (I have no idea whether that was true or not – that’s just the take-away my daughter had.) </p>
<p>I really do have a hard time understanding how any individual who has taken all of those rigorous courses – through AP Calc-- and scored so well on those standardized tests (including the math part) – can’t get the simple message that if a school’s admit rate is 8%, that means that admission is highly unlikely.</p>
<p>Instead, I get the sense of kids who have done a lot of studying and memorization but haven’t really integrated real knowledge or the ability to apply that knowledge to real life situations. </p>
<p>The experience has left me incredibly impressed by this upcoming generation in all its variations. And that’s why some of us do mind the whining or looking for some ultra level of empathy. Or blaming. Or indulging in a sense of profound, irreparable loss. </p>
<p>But it all comes back to: these are hs kids. their expertise is in mastering high school. That alone doesn’t tell anyone how ready they are-- or how competitive they are-- for a single digit college. Claiming that one’s stats or hs leadership is all it takes is such limited vision. Parents should guide their kids to some additional levels of wisdom and resilience and get away from hierarchical notions. Or winner vs loser. </p>