A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

Parents Forum
701

<p>Regarding the special program a day in advance for Penn’s Quaker Days. I’m not sure why it’s hard to see how exactly this sort of event makes kids feel there’s an inherent preference for certain types of students at a school like Penn. If the program had been for foreigners, or for handicapped students with mobility issues, or the like, then it would have been a non-issue. However, the invitation criteria is race and sexual orientation–not attributes a kid has/or has had any control over, or if he does, shouldn’t be forced to change in order to also receive special attention and wooing by an elite school.</p>

<p>I’ve mentioned this case before, but there was an AA young lady from our high school whose admission to Penn Wharton caused tremendous consternation on the part of many high-achieving Asian students rejected at Penn W that year. She had two professional married parents, lived in a large home, and attended the same public schools as everyone else for 13 years. In their minds–whether it was true or not, and I’m sure some will assert it wasn’t–she was completely unremarkable academically, intellectually, and socially. (Her brother, however, was a real dynamo and no one said boo when he went Ivy.) You can argue she was secretly fantastic somehow (the essay I guess) and the kids just didn’t realize. Regardless, academically for our school she was not even in the ballpark of top. Only took 2 or 3 AP’s versus kids who taken all the AP courses offered plus self-studied for others. She was not even a National Achievement scholar, much less a Commended or NMF. So, despite having had the same opportunities, she did far less educationally than many other kids in her environment . She either lacked motivation or ability or both. But here was the real rub. Penn obviously agreed with her peers that her academics were shaky, and so they invited her to a special summer program on campus for minorities to help her prepare for college. She got a special orientation, got to take a college class, etc. In the minds of the kids, her race trumped everything. (Note: I can’t imagine anyone objecting if this had this been a kid who grew up in an impoverished gang neighborhood with bad schools, which is the sort of person one would assume these programs are for rather than some privileged suburban kid who didn’t make the grade.) </p>

<p>This is not about race per se. It’s about fairness. If the college did this sort of thing for everyone with attached earlobes, or for all those who can curl their tongues, or for freckled people, or for just boys even though it’s a co-ed school, I think people would also be upset. </p>

702

<p>@Elliemom

</p>

<p>There may be something to that. I wonder how many of them write essays that use the word “I” a lot and are essentially reiterations of their brag sheets? How many choose to write about their accomplishments and the honors they’ve won rather than essays about difficulties they’ve faced, or lessons they’ve learned from mistakes along the way. I might be mistaken, but I believe the OP said the SWF daughter had written about the project that lead to her GS Gold award? What was the tone of that essay? The first sentence and the last? Did the essay seem to be about her pride in her own role, or did it focus more on the issues and concerns that her project was intended to address.</p>

<p>Many of the essay prompts used for colleges are designed to bring out evidence that the student has faced some difficulty along the way and has some insight - example: “Recount an incident or time when you experienced failure. How did it affect you, and what lessons did you learn?” Those essay prompts are also a good sign of what the colleges are looking for – because the answers do give them insight into the student’s level of resiliency. </p>

703

<p>Remember a few years ago, when we’d frequently tell kids on CC that the challenge prompt needed lessons they’ve learned from mistakes along the way combined with the “show, not tell” format? Not just this thing happened, but the evolution and some gentle examples.</p>

<p>Actually, College Board made the prompts changes and the colleges do not necessarily like them at all. Kids have been taking them literally-- eg, tell about a failure. And missing the point that this is not for your hs English teacher, but must be relevant to the college review. So you get 4th grade, tongue tied on stage. The end. Insights? Maybe something 4th grade-y. Zip about since then, how it led to changes or what the freak it has to do with college level skills. This is what I mean about judgment. Or savvy. </p>

<p>Imagine ‘my favorite place’ or however it is phrased. Make it relevant. Not Disneyland or that corner in the attic? It;s a college app. </p>

<p>Also, the GS essay- I’ve helped kids see how tone comes across to strangers. Often, these come across as “aren’t I great? And I know you are looking for great.” When modesty and sensitivity have more impact. </p>

<p>Remember the old groans about the poor kids in Africa and how now she’s grateful for the car daddy bought, her privileges? Some kids who detail a service project inadvertently let this creep out-- we don’t know, but suppose the essay was all about how wonderful a service she did for these poor, underprivileged kids with her noblesse oblige?</p>

704

<p>I think the real point is that even kids who do everything right will be rejected. Most of them know this but that doesn’t mean they are going to like it. Eventually, they will learn to accept it.</p>

705

<p>“What the school wants in applicants is not the same as a promise to admit every student with those stats.”</p>

<p>“I really do have a hard time understanding how any individual who has taken all of those rigorous courses – through AP Calc-- and scored so well on those standardized tests (including the math part) – can’t get the simple message that if a school’s admit rate is 8%, that means that admission is highly unlikely.”</p>

<p>Thank you!!</p>

706

<p>@MovemeBrightly

You’re kidding, right?</p>

<p>Or has your life been so fortunate and sheltered that you really believe that this is going to be your kid’s life experience? </p>

<p>Do you know how tough the job market is? Does it occur to you how many obstacles people face in life that are truly dependent on factors that are unpredictable and outside of their control? </p>

<p>I’m sorry, with the challenges my son has faced in over the past dozen years, in hindsight college admissions looks trivial. My d. has had a somewhat smoother ride, but only because she’s been lucky enough to be the one that some good employers chose out of a stack of 300+ job applicants – though not always. Hey, if your kid doesn’t like dealing with uncertainty and a fickle practice, here’s a piece of advice: don’t ever apply for a job at Google. </p>

<p>The difference with college admission is that for any fairly good student: it’s pretty much a solid guarantee that they will get in somewhere. The smart ones make sure that the “somewhere” includes safeties they can live with – and they don’t confuse the concept of “safety” with “match” - they understand that sure thing is not the same as a coin toss.</p>

<p>Live doesn’t come with guarantees. For most young people, there’s no such thing as a “safety” job – something you can be sure to get if the jobs you want don’t come through. Though I suppose for some, there’s always the possibility of going to work for the family business. </p>

<p>And jobs are a whole lot more significant than choice of college-- that first job can impact where the student lives and the rest of their life path. </p>

<p>Here’s my son’s question of the week: Now that he’s about to earn his master’s degree, when he’s looking for a job, if he gets an offer for a job that is in the same category and pay as the job he used to have (before the degree) – should he accept it? Or should he hold out for a position that represents an advance up the career ladder, even if that means potentially going longer without a job? At the moment he doesn’t have either choice – but what is “up in the air” is the whole rest of his life – and the thing about jobs, is that you never really know when positions will open up and what they will be. You don’t get to sit and look at a bunch of brochures, and pick a set of employers you like, confident that at least one will hire you. Instead you have to comb job listings, hoping that something interesting will come up and that you’ll have the qualifications to match, knowing full well that at least half the positions that are posted are essentially sham, with the employer already having someone lined up for the job, but required to go through the public listing stage because of their company’s HR rules. </p>

707

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, the college application is kind of like another test – only instead of the ability to choose A, B, C, D, or “none of the above” – the answer requires writing a couple of paragraphs and demonstrating some insight as to why the question is being asked. </p>

<p>The kids who are missing the point are essentially failing a test that obviously is as important to colleges as the SAT. And it’s not hard of a test-- it just requires a modicum of insight into what the process of communication with other human beings entails. </p>

708

<p>

</p>

<p>I humbly disagree. Let’s say for instance that a kid gets straight A+s in his engineering major at MIT, wins the award for research and a general award for the best in his major. Add to that that the profs in his department say he/she is the best student they have seen in about 20 years. That person would get into the top 5 grad schools and will win an NSF Fellowship and any other research fellowship. And it won’t be a problem to get hired at the best engineering firms. If they so desire, McKinsey and Boston Consulting will probably hire them unless they come off really strange in the interview. Same goes for the Wall Street firms which are looking to hire quants.</p>

<p>For the equivalent performance in high school (say they have equivalent national recognition and have performed against similar competition), I’d say they would be lucky to get into one of the top 5 or 6 schools.</p>

709

<p>First of all, it’s not all going to be fine for all kids for school. There are kids who do not make good choices, there are unhappy kids and parents. But do be aware this is a process where those involved are vying for spots for which they are going to be PAYING the schools. It’s a whole other level when one gets into the job market and are looking for others to PAY. Huge difference. And sadly, it doesn’t always work out for everyone in that either. This is just one step towards that. </p>

<p>Though I let it go when people start with the “meant to be” and “it all works out”, bad decisions can be in the mix, bad luck and things don’t always work out. Sometimes it’s difficult to determine if an outcome could have prevented, but sometimes it’s pretty clear that it probably could have.</p>

710

<p>Exactly. All aspects of the apps are a “test.” It’s not an app for a part time job or a brag sheet.<br>
I don’t even care who helps them with this insight- you or me, some other person in their lives. But the light bulb doesn’t spontaneously blink on just because they are top stats kids.</p>

711

<p>Sometimes it can be hard for people to grasp what single digit acceptance rates mean. I suppose students who frequently end up at the top of their high schools are not accustomed to dealing with rejection. </p>

<p>The Harvard Crimson reported on this year’s admissions cycle. Regular decision candidates faced a 3.1% admission rate. The graph accompanying the article gives the reader a visual representation of what that means: <a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/3/27/regular-admissions-class-2018/[/url]”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/3/27/regular-admissions-class-2018/&lt;/a&gt;. </p>

<p>The early round faced a 21% admission rate. No one can assert that not being admitted in the regular decision round to Harvard is due to demographics this year. The lesson I draw from this year is that applicants should apply early to their favorite college, if they can afford it. </p>

712

<p>Well, I have a hard time understanding how people don’t get that there ARE factors that may make your chances at admission at a school either MORE or LESS than the posted admissions rate, as Hanna, who has more experience in this than probably any of us, has suggested. If you are from an over-represented group, that maybe cuts your chance at admission in half. If you have a 2400, maybe that raises your chances to 25 % - still not great, but not quite the lottery of the lower number. If you are a published poet whose work has received favorable notice from Helen Vendler, I’d say that raises your chances to pretty close to 100%. </p>

<p>It is possible to have a high sense of self that is also fairly accurate and clear-headed. I’m just going to come out and say it: I don’t think I was “entitled” to go to the school I went to. I got in, but I could just as easily not have. Possibly, I wouldn’t have in the current climate I do think that, in a fair system, I was entitled to get into certain other competitive schools, including some that had sub - 30 % acceptance rates. I would have been annoyed if I hadn’t gotten in. I would have gotten over it, and it wouldn’t have embittered my life or even the next few months (I didn’t get into grad school the first time I applied. I cried a lot for the first few days, then had an awesome year). But I would have been annoyed. </p>

713

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m trying to understand this…what’s the difference? Why is one more disappointing or problematic than the other? In both cases we’re talking about what really comes down to missed opportunities. How is losing a part in a Broadway play different than losing a place in Columbia’s freshman class? Just because the flow of money/services is going in different directions? What am I missing?</p>

714

<p>@theGFG, I am seeing the same pattern that you described in your post. We live in a suburb where the zip code consistently makes the top 20 richest zips in the country list, so every family is at least upper middle class, white, Asian, AA or Hispanic. Kids grew up together and clearly know who are the best, and the published quarterly honor roll data shows that. However, kids also know who and who will have an advantage because he/she can check certain boxes in Comm App. And the student self-reported college admission data demonstrates that as well.</p>

<p>The notion that Asian students are boring is not correct. One ought to see the resume of some of the top students, Intel, Simens, USAMO/ABO/APO, international music competitions … Of course, I guess these are “boring Asian activities” in many on CCers’ eyes. </p>

<p>We tell our kids, who are Asian and self-identified as such on the Common App, to try their best. Even if the admission decisions are not desirable, they have no regret as they have done everything that is within their control. </p>

<p>Or the family can change its last name, both student’s and parents’, to hide their true identity. I have heard this not once or twice …. while I don’t agree, but understand the attempt to be at the same starting point with everyone else. Sad. </p>

715

<p>

</p>

<p>Their definition of “best” may differ from that of the University to which they apply. There is no standard definition of what makes the “best” candidate.</p>

716

<p>@Bearsgarden‌ … Never heard of changing names to hide racial identity before, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. I hate to judge, but that sure seems to send exactly the WRONG message to your kids… Cheat, the end justifies the means!!!</p>

717

<p>The fact that that is cheating makes the point, though.</p>

718

<p>Anglocizing one’s name to avoid discrimination has been done in the U.S. for a couple of hundred years. It isn’t cheating. </p>

<p>If it was cheating even in spirit, they wouldn’t have a box to check signifying that you don’t want to disclose your racial identity.</p>

719

<p>I get annoyed by the assertion, often repeated on CC, that all the students know each other’s qualifications. If you had asked the kids in my son’s graduating class about him they probably would have said that he was an above average but not exceptional student with mediocre ECs (a club co-presidency, JV sports and a few assorted activities) whose legacy status got him into his college. What the vast majority of his peers didn’t know, because he didn’t tell them, was that he was the anonymous poet publishing in the literary magazine, his summer trip to DC was to receive an award from his Senator, and he holds a professional certification toward which he’s been working since he was 8. Everyone else in his final certification course was a college graduate and not everyone passed. He was accomplishing all this while coming home to a mom sick as a dog from chemo to treat the cancer diagnosed the first week of his junior year.</p>

<p>You may think you know these applicants but it’s very possible you’d be surprised at what you don’t know about them.</p>

720

<p>Kids on CC talk about changing their names. Silly because you also list your parents names and birthplaces. And because a good candidate with a foreign name is still a good candidate. (Problem being that what kids think makes a good candidate is so off.)</p>

<p>Kids grew up together and clearly know who are the best,
Let’s clarify this for once and for all: they know who is best in their high school. Not who will be best at whatever college. Remember, they barely know what colleges look for. And adcoms are not looking for those whose high school peers think they are so hot. Not necessarily Val or Prom Queen or Varsity Captain or the kid who won some award in that hs. Or the English teacher’s favorite.</p>