A Woman's Right to be left Alone

Parent Cafe
21

I think maybe I was not as clear as I should have/could have been. There is a line and the individual at Iowa clearly crossed it but by the same token I think that line has moved drastically in the last 10-20 years (at least since I was single) and I don’t know that people can define where the line is.

Maybe I’m stuck in the past but 25 years ago, pre internet and social media where were singles told to meet people? Generally you would hear responses around church, grocery store, school, etc. I was never much of a dater and never went this route (I met my wife in a bar) but I always accepted this advice was sound, maybe I was mistaken.

I guess I don’t understand where you are to meet new people if approaching someone and asking them out for coffee crosses the line. If they decline they decline and you walk away but to say this is behavior that should be banned seems extreme to me.

I look at the advice we give on CC to students moving to campus for the first time, where they don’t know anyone. The advice often includes being social in the dorm, asking floor mates to go to dinner together, joining campus groups, etc. Any of these activities would in my mind be taboo as a male student may ask a female student if they want to grab dinner or study together and if this is viewed as unwelcome and that women should not be approached where exactly is the line.

Again, the examples in the article all clearly cross the line, I just don’t think standing next to someone at the dog park, watching the dogs play, and striking up a conversation is over a line.

I saw a social media post from a college aged woman last year that asked if other women were creeped out by older men on a bus looking at them? The responses were overwhelmingly yes and it was not about leering dirty old men, the responses were just older men in general. As an older man, that is on a bus every day, I asked myself what can I do differently. I do not leer at women on the bus but in a confined space it is difficult not to make eye contact with other passengers, male or female. Seats are small so contact between passengers is unavoidable. Many buses have seats along the outside that face the middle, unless your nose is buried in a book or phone, looking at those sitting 3 feet across from you is unavoidable. Do we need buses that are segregated by age or gender so no one is uncomfortable?

Harassment is wrong but it just seems we have gotten to a point that anything “I don’t like” should be banned. I think common sense can be used to when something is truly a threat (driver following a jogger for a long length of time) vs. a friendly gesture (striking up a conversation in a public place).

22

@iaparent
I like your distinctions.
I am not a runner, but I walk every day no matter where I am and have done so for the last 30 years. I have probably taken chances in dangerous cities that shouldn’t have been taken. I have never had a truly scary incident but have had a multitude of instances where men made comments - some friendly, some weird. Over the years, I have started to make direct eye contact and speak first in a very businesslike way - “good morning”, and keep moving. I have always been taught (even in self-defense class) that a bully likes a victim and a person who seems assertive doesn’t make good prey.

I am in no form or fashion stating that this is a foolproof plan or that a victim who gets hurt is at fault somehow.

23

There’s a definite difference between rude sexual advances and polite attempts to strike a conversation. When I was a young woman, I experienced a number of both, and still enjoy remembering a few of the second category. The weirdest pick-up line a guy tried on me was when I was browsing books in a used-books bookstore - he said “You look like you might know - do they sell books on natural philosophy?”

24

I just happened upon a University reddit and the most recent topic was timely. A freshman male student was asking the group how to meet more people, specifically women. Here is a copy and paste of the first response:

Try talking to them like a person. Party environment is not a great place to meet real people. Developing actual relationships (both platonic and romantic) take time. Find some activities where you can interact with the same people on a semi-regular basis. Clubs, programs and activities around campus, stuff that you’re interested in and put some effort into making an effort.

Don’t just hang back and wait for people to message you after you’re acquainted, message them first and ask them to do something. The rule of 3 is a good rule to go by; if you like someone, ask them to hang out. If they don’t reciprocate and look for an excuse 3 times and don’t seem to want to hang out with you, then stop wasting your time. I’m not talking about harassing them “hey gurl y dnt u climb on board huehuehue”, but be a person. “Yo go wanna hit up Starbucks?”

Based on much of the discussion here this guy is being set up for misery. The advice he has received is to try 3 times before moving on. This thread would indicate that 1 try is too many, 2 is unacceptable, and 3 could/should be criminal.

25

How do different cultures/expectations fit into these questions? I mean, many people are recent arrivals from very different cultures, and many born here in the United States may have been raised with very different values.

Moreover, there is a constant refrain in public life that we are not to judge different cultures or pass judgment on what each might find acceptable. Is it truly fair to hold people with diverse cultural values to the same standards as to when and how to approach members of the opposite sex? And who decides these standards?

What many people seem to be implicitly understanding is that there are norms of civility that shouldn’t be crossed. We think of social conventions like good manners or common sense. Unfortunately, as the shared culture fractures, we are left with only coercive laws to enforce social norms. This is very difficult to do. Just imagine trying to write into legislation the myriad sort of situations that may be encountered at any given moment!

26

I think women who ride the bus know the difference (I am one). A casual glance, fine. Staring, no. “Assessing” - women can tell when men are doing that — checking out their face or body — no.

27

If I am standing in line and I am not reading a book or my phone, I am fine with you talking to me about the weather. I am not fine with you immediately asking me for a date. If I am sitting on a park bench eating my lunch, I am not looking for a date. If I am running I am not looking for a date.

I once had a lovely time with an older gentleman at the Victoria and Albert Museum - I was probably 17 or 18. Of course he ended up ruining it by wanting me to go to his apartment. He did take no for an answer though. I don’t consider it one of my bad experiences with men, but I’d have liked it better if he’d just said “enjoy the rest of your stay in London!” And maybe some one else would have gone home with him, and thought it was great. I knew I probably shouldn’t have ever started talking to him in the first place, but he knew a lot about the art we were looking at.

I like the reddit advice in post #23.

28

A lot of it is a “how dare HE think I would be interested in HIM” from women. If George Clooney is doing the “harassing”, the complaints will be fewer.

29

When my recent college graduate son moved to a new city he was worried about meeting new people because making friends at work was complicated for reasons I won’t go through here. Our Christmas present to him was a puppy. IME taking a dog to the park sends a signal you’re a more or less safe guy with a reason to be hanging out in public, and it lets women approach you. I call the puppy his chick magnet. :smiley:

30

@sorghum not my D. She would find that more annoying (good looking guys are often very entitled in how they deal with women). Are you male? I think men assume it is about looks because for them it often is. Most women I know find a guy more interesting for reasons other than appearance.

31

I was talking to a 70 yo woman in the hiking club I joined last summer. She still tent camps by herself and I questioned her about what sorts of precautions she takes.

She told me some extra steps she takes, and then she said, “You know…I thought when I got older, men would leave me alone…but that hasn’t happened.”

This is just my opinion, but I think in general, women have a keen sense of boundaries & when men are interested in more than just casual conversation or friendship.

For sure, I can tell the difference with men in the hiking club. There is one man I steer clear of. Dude, I’m here to hike, have some nice conversations with interesting people. Not looking to have you compliment my physical appearance or what I’m wearing. NO ONE else does! Not looking to hook up.

32

And you know this how?

33

I’ve always been just as likely to think, “Just because he’s good looking he thinks he can act like THAT?”

34

… I didn’t mention looks, did I, just a likely to be recognized figure. Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, if you prefer.

35

Wait, so the only acceptable place to meet someone is in a bar? Parties, at least in the sense I would use the term, usually end after you’re done with undergrad.

36

No, because it’s about intent. The rest of the advice is to get to know people first, before asking for a date. Then, rather than asking for a “date” suggest going for coffee, something more public.

Roethlisburger, it’ is acceptable to meet people in other places and situations, but don’t go to those other places seeking a date. If you meet someone in the laundry room, strike up a conversation, and maybe suggest “see you next week” or something similar. If they’re in an activity with you, rather than searching for their contact information and contacting them on social media, ASK for it - would it be ok if I call you? If the answer is no, wait until you know each other a bit better. Invite her to a group event, where there’s less pressure… treat her like a person, as suggested.

37

I just got off a FaceTime call with my daughter, who’s living in an off-campus house with a big group of women. The tapestry in their living room reads, “He offered her the world and she said, ‘Uh, I asked for a vodka soda.’” B-)

38

I have been surprised by young women who get upset when a guy they don’t like flirts with them. I have asked if they told the guy they weren’t interested, and the answer was that he should have known. My response is that the guy probably doesn’t read minds, so they should begin with, “Thanks, but I am not interested.” If he persists, there’s a problem … but at least give him the chance to do the right thing. I don’t know … maybe I live in the past. Maybe things are so scary now that the first thought needs to be the worst thought. That makes me sad, but I understand the need to feel safe.

39

For really pretty women like my D, the problem is that almost every guy is trying to flirt with them. It gets old. They can’t fly on a plane, go to the grocery, go for a run, sit on a park bench, or even carry out their jobs without “flirtatious” male attention. Maybe to a guy doing it, it is just one moment, so feels like nothing. But it accumulates for women.

Trust me, the person with the best shot at winning my D’s heart won’t approach her on the bus or in a coffee shop. They’ll get to know her in a class or a professional group or a club — but without sexual innuendo, touching her unnecessarily, physical compliments when they don’t even know her, or making her feel stalked. Some guys seem to think this is “flirting”. It isn’t.

40

Except, a lot of girls complain about getting approached in class also, as they’re there to go to lectures not to meet guys. I could see an argument professional societies are also verboten, if participation in the professional society is seen as an extension of or in any way necessary to one’s job.