A Woman's Right to be left Alone

Parent Cafe
41

"I think we have all had these experiences, and they can start young. "

I remember it happening when I was as young as 11 or 12. Gosh, what a job our society does to females since we’re so constantly subjected to this starting at such a very young age.

“or even carry out their jobs without “flirtatious” male attention”
I shared this on a similar thread awhile back that I think might have been started by @intparent. My daughter was working an event for her work. Her job was to “man” a station and be there to answer questions, direct people, etc. She was dressed modestly in business appropriate attire, obviously doing a job. As was appropriate to her job for the afternoon on behalf of the organization, she would greet and welcome people and smile. At an event of just a few hours, many men approached her in an attempt to chat and flirt and several asked her out for that evening including men 20-30 years her senior. No, it wasn’t welcome attention, at all. She was just trying to do a job.

42

How about if we just let women take pony in this going forward? If she is interested, she will ask you out. Otherwise, assume she isn’t.

43

OP here. I have been reading through the comments and find them very interesting.

One thing I feel the need to say something about is that a woman at a bar or a party may be interested in socializing, but is not necessarily looking to be picked up. I joined several coworkers at a hotel bar near my office last winter (a former coworker was in town and she wanted to get together). I walked in, went to the only occupied table, exchanged greetings with everyone there, put my coat on one of the chairs before going up to the bar to order a drink. As I waited for the bartender to get my glass of wine, a guy sitting there started flirting with me (btw, my left hand with my rings was in plain view). I have no idea why this guy assumed I was there to be flirted with, because I clearly was not.

44

There’s a difference between multiple minor conversation followed by “I liked your comments on Globalism. Do you want to get coffee sometime?” and an out of the blue “You look hot today. Wanna go out?” It’s all in the approach.

45

Yes @Sue22!

I distinctly remember being on vacation with our daughter when she was 13 and having a guy totally ogling her on the street. I whipped around and said she was 13 and to back off. She is tall but was wearing braces and clearly not an adult. The guy just chuckled and made a “nice bod” comment and walked off. I find it disgusting that men think it’s OK to look a girl or woman up and down on the street, make remarks, etc… It’s degrading and gross, and not a compliment like some men like to think.

46

I think we can all agree that stalking and rape are unacceptable.
I think we can all agree that it is a sad world to live in where no strangers ever dare say anything anytime to anyone.

Where is the line in between, particularly for young people without fully developed social skills who want to make friends and have romantic relationships?

Here’s what I tell my kids. It’s all about your intent and the reaction of the other person.

True example.
One of my DD’s male friends was bragging in a group about his strategy for meeting attractive girls. He looked around the dining hall for girls sitting alone and asked if he could sit there. “They almost always say yes because it would be rude not to.” Then he engages them in conversation and tries to get a phone number from them. He was stunned when the females in the group told him this was creepy and although some of them would give out a number in this scenario just to get rid of a guy most would block that number and/or not respond.

Just to spell it out completely, red flag #1 “it would be rude not to”. If your chatting up potential dates strategy involves approaching them in a situation where they feel compelled to interact with you, you are already on shaky ground. @doschicos daughter working an info table is an even stronger example of this.

But let’s say we give cafeteria boy the benefit of the doubt. He sits down in cafeteria next to cute girl. He has even asked if he can sit so in his mind he is being proactive and gaining consent. But his next step needs to be to read the situation and respond appropriately. In my opinion he gets at most one shot of making conversation and this must be a completely neutral statement that does not refer to her appearance or anything sexual. Something like, “I’m glad it’s Friday/Sure is hot today/Man the food here sucks.” The best choice is a statement not a question that demands a response.

Then he has to pay attention to how she reacts. If she doesn’t respond at all or just grunts or says something like “yeah” without even looking at him, then he has a clear signal that she isn’t interested. He should respect her choice and eat his meal without bothering her.

If she responds with enthusiasm (Me too, I can’t wait for the weekend/Yeah, I heard that it is supposed to finally cool down tomorrow/At least the pizza is ok-ish) great! He now has implicit consent to continue the conversation as long as she continues to show interest in conversing.

If the response is somewhere in between he can try one more time. If he doesn’t get a clear response then he should let it go.

And no, a person shouldn’t have to say, “Sorry, I’m not interested in having a conversation with you.” That is a really hard thing to say to someone. There are people who genuinely lack social skills and need to be taught by walking them through scenarios like the above. But there are even more people out there who do not care about what other people want and think others owe them conservation and more. These jerks use other people’s politeness to force interactions and it is not okay.

47

We’ve had other threads on this. There’s some people who believe it’s never acceptable to ask someone out in class, just as it’s never acceptable to ask someone out at the office. “I liked your comments on globalism” sounds either pretentious or like you want help studying for the next exam, but that’s a minor point.

48

LOL, I think my comments in lectures were more like, “Isn’t this guy the most boring professor ever?!”

49

Just so you know, it doesn’t just happen to cute and beautiful girls. All my life i’ve had insults hurled at me while out walking my dog (“look, a dog at each end of the leash” and the like) and in public places as well.

50

I guess I need to count my blessings I’ve mostly been spared from undesired attention. I’m pretty friendly but haven’t had to fend off many propositions—a creepy few.

I stated in a prior thread I think it’s somewhat related to exposure and opportunity. I have mostly been able to avoid working at jobs where I have to put up with abuse or mistreatment from co-workers or bosses or customers. It’s unfortunate that so many are subjected to harassment on such a frequent basis. It is unpleasant and worse.

51

The OP mentioned being catcalled recently. Would you folks agree that catcalling, at least by a group, isn’t an attempt to find a mate (even for 10 minutes) so much as it is an act of aggression? Does the catcaller think that by making suggestive noises or “complimenting” a woman’s body, she’ll turn right around and say “where have you been all my life? Let’s get a drink”? How often does that ever happen?

In my experience, and in that of my friends, this happens: if it’s a group of men, the woman tries to ignore the catcallers, they laugh, and she goes on her way remembering that her safety is tenuous, while they wait for the next woman to happen by. If it’s one single guy, it’s more upsetting in that he may become angry and pursue her. In the first scenario, he’s primarily performing for his friends.

I’ve always wondered what these guys are thinking. It certainly looks like they think women exist for their entertainment.

52

There is a segment in a This American Life program where a woman interviews a guy to try to convince him to stop catcalling. I think it is the first story after the intro. It has been a while since I listened, but it is jaw dropping how little understanding he has of how this feels from the woman’s viewpoint.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/603/once-more-with-feeling

53

Yesterday my D is waiting for her bus after class. A young man who is in her class (classmate in a masters level class) who she has never talked to joins her at the bus stop and asks when the bus comes. She says, “It is coming now.”

He gets on and sits across from her, and starts talking to her. He asks if she will help him if he has questions about the class. She is polite, and says, “Sure.” Then near the end of the ride, he asks her name so he can send her a Facebook friend request. She doesn’t really want to, but does.

He gets off at her stop and walks up the street with her. When she gets to the turn into her neighborhood, she says, “I go this way. Where are you going?” He says, “Oh, I’m going back to campus.”

The dude followed her onto the bus and off at her stop. As she says, “Mom, he was following me home.” She has decided to ignore his friend request, and tell him it wasn’t cool to do that if he brings it up. She says if he wants to meet in the library with another classmate she already studies with, she is open to that if he asks for class help.

But… she should have the right to ride the bus without a guy following along to get her name & contact info.

54

When I was in 8th grade, there were some construction workers in the school. One of them said to me, “Little girl, you’re ready for Halloween?” and laughed, creepily. It took me a few minutes to realize he was insulting me…

55

@intparent Oh my. What that guy did is totally creepy.

56

@alwaysamom She might be a little more creeped out than normal — a woman golfer at her college was assaulted and murdered when playing alone on the school course (during the day) about a mile from her apartment just a few days ago. They caught the guy quickly. But the whole community is a little unsettled right now, I think.

57

@intparent … thanks for the link above. That was something. I love the male thinking how it’s all about him and how he knows how she should react. Just wow.

58

Growing up, I always looked older than I was. By 8th grade, I was taller than most full-grown women. I began getting inappropriate comments thrown my way well before I knew what any of them meant. I just knew I felt unsafe and uncomfortable.

My sister and I were traveling cross-country when we were about 8 & 13. On the plane, this guy next to us kept creepily trying to talk to us. I don’t have sharp memories of the incident but I remember my older sister protecting me. She knew what was going on and knew how to placate him so he wouldn’t bug me.

I have headphones for the sole purpose of getting people to leave me alone when I travel. I don’t listen to anything, just keep them on.

I’ve been model-skinny and prednisone-obese (with the lovely moon face and all). At both ends and everything in between, men (especially) seem to believe that your body is there for their gaze and consumption. You get different types of stares, whispers, taunts, etc but at the core of all of it is the idea that your body in their presence is either pleasing and desired or grotesque- either way (and everywhere between), they feel empowered to judge and comment.

59

@intparent I read about that young golfer. What a horrific crime. I can totally understand how your D and the community would be unsettled.

60

The only time I ever felt it was a compliment and my girlfriends and I would laugh, was when I was 15 and lived in a South American country. The guys there would “catcall”, but it was sort of different I guess. Nothing vulgar said. One would walk by a guy or, more normal a small group. They would stop when you passed by and do an exaggerated intake of breath, turn around as you walked by and say something like “Hola Reina (queen)”, or “ Que Bella”, or “ Mamasita”. I never felt unsafe or badgered or insulted. We would just start dying laughing, like two silly 15 year olds would. On the other hand, I feel uncomfortable walking by a group of men catcalling here.