A Year Without EA - A Recap of the Harvard Admissions Year

Colleges & Universities Harvard University
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<p>Oh my. I deleted my last post because of anxiety over my D’s privacy.</p>

<p>This debate is very frustrating. There is simply a fundamental difference in philosophy. Some of us believe in hour hearts that opportunity abounds in this country for everyone. The glass is eternally half full and we see those who want to tell some of us that we are disadvantaged and that our particular glass is half empty as well-meaning but very destructive.</p>

<p>EA offered some possibly slight advantage to kids who cared deeply about attending the finest schools in the land. Now it’s gone. How dare these kids care so much about going to Harvard? Indeed. The trick now is apparently to not care. Those are the target kids. Those are the deserving ones. Excuse me if I think the emperor is buck naked.</p>

<p>I expect the ACT and SAT to be abolished very soon. That will get rid of pesky reality checks on the actual academic quality of the incoming classes at these schools. Certainly, a move in the right direction? More reason for me to hesitatate in writing a big check next month.</p>

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<p>As an experiment, I did the following:</p>

<ol>
<li>Google “harvard admissions” without the quotation marks and click the first result.</li>
<li>Click the Undergraduate link.</li>
<li>Click Admissions and Financial Aid FAQ.</li>
</ol>

<p>Now, what do we have here? I see High School Preparation, Standardized Tests, Admission Requirements, Application Procedures and Policies. I think it’s reasonable to assume that the hypothetical “able but not aware” student who has been mentioned in this thread can figure out everything he needs to know about Harvard’s admissions policy. At least to me, all of Harvard’s answers were clear.</p>

<p>Next, I did another experiment, as follows:</p>

<ol>
<li>Google “cornell admissions” without the quotation marks.</li>
<li>Click “How to apply” underneath the first result.</li>
</ol>

<p>Hmm, how interesting. I see Application Process Overview, Application Instructions, Admission Requirements and Timetable, and – gasp – EARLY DECISION INFORMATION.</p>

<p>

I would like someone to honestly tell me that it is unfair to ask a student who is Cornell or Harvard material to go to the websites and check out freely available information. Indulge me.</p>

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<p>When would be a good time to have the road show?</p>

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<p>I’m not in a position to debate the environmental issue, but I don’t think it’s a win/win for both parties. It’s a win for schools, and it’s a win for some students, but it’s not a win for all students for the reasons that I’ve already stated so many times.</p>

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<p>It’s obviously not unfair if they know that Harvard is a possibility for them. At that point, yes they certainly have a responsibility to investigate and learn everything they can about it. What I’m saying is that many kids don’t know that Harvard is a possibility until very late in the process. Eliminating early action programs is one way to combat the problem. The side benefit of having more recruitment trips is another. To those who suggest beginning the recruitment trips earlier, that would certainly benefit applicants in the current applation cycle. But it would not do much good for kids who are younger. Harvard’s goal is not just to reach kids earlier, but to reach more of them. One way to do that is by having a longer recruiting season.</p>

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<p>Bay, I’m with you on the value of EA/ED, but I don’t think Harvard et al. can simply begin their road shows earlier. It’s hard enough for them to reach qualified students who are in school. To reach qualified students who are NOT in school – all students, in July and August – would be next to impossible. It doesn’t do any good to have a roadshow when the kids you are trying to reach are not even thinking about college.</p>

<p>I do not doubt that there are x potential Harvard students out there who are not likely to be aware of Harvard, of the benefits of attending it, and of the process of applying to it, in time to meet a November 1 EA deadline. There are also x - y potential Harvard students out there who have the same problem with a January 1 RD deadline. The question is, is y large enough to care a lot about? Or, more precisely, is the fraction of y that would not be admitted RD in a split EA/RD system large enough to care about? Harvard obviously thinks so; other colleges (so far) disagree. It will be interesting to see a real evaluation of this policy vs. the de facto control group represented by Yale and Stanford.</p>

<p>I would also note that successful outreach programs for disadvantaged students, like Questbridge, start waaaay before the beginning of 12th grade, and produce applications from participants before the EA/ED deadline. At the end of the day, I guess I believe that the really successful outreach has to be to 10th and 11th graders (or earlier). I wonder how many of the hypothetical Harvard students who didn’t know Harvard existed, or that they had a chance of admission, at the start of 12th grade actually applied and were actually admitted to Harvard. Some, surely, but how many relative to the intensity of the effort necessary to reach them? And could that effort be directed more efficiently to younger students? From a social standpoint, I care a lot less about Harvard’s admissions than with getting more of those kids to apply “up” to colleges that might benefit them, Harvard and others, including rolling-admission state flagships where early applications are also advantaged.</p>

<p>I will provide one anecdote. My kids went to a public high school with a lot of smart, disadvantaged students, many with parents who know nothing about U.S. higher education, or higher education anywhere. That doesn’t stop most of them from figuring out the EA/ED system – it’s a constant topic of conversation among high-performing kids. However, one of my son’s close friends simply could not get his act together to apply EA to his first choice, MIT, even though there was no reason in the world why he shouldn’t, and he understood that. He was doing something no one in his family or his community outside of school had ever done; he had little or no support for it at home. Could someone with more initiative have handled it? Probably. But this kid is a URM who, based on his tests, school, and class rank, was almost certainly the top student in his ethnic group in this region. He was an attractive candidate for any college, notwithstanding his inability to negotiate the process by November 1. </p>

<p>And, of course, he was accepted by MIT and many other colleges RD. So, in his case, the disadvantages of EA, real as they were, were basically irrelevant.</p>

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<p>“Is it plausible that a student of any socio-economic background who brings only high SAT scores to the table is likely to be admitted? Most likely any real candidates will also have high GPAs, evidence of intellectual curiosity, disciplined work ethic, etc. They will be (or should be) the type of student who has had ideas of furthering their education before taking the SAT (obviously, that is why they took it).”</p>

<p>I can answer this question from personal experience, although it’s dated. I was a high-performing student at a small-town public school in Virginia. At the time, the assumption was that such students would go to U.Va. I got an unusually high SAT score for my school, and a kid from the prior year went to Princeton. It was only those things that made me even think of applying to Ivies. I think this is still true in a lot of places.
I’m also going to spin a thread on a proposal to fix EA and ED. It’s in the Parents’ Forum.</p>

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<p>That assumes RD is/can be win-win for all students, but there is no evidence of same.</p>

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<p>The Univ of Calif has the same issue with, primarily, URMs, and, therefore, is contemplating dropping Subject Tests. Speaking of Calif…the Cal State U and UC applications have been due on November 30 for decades, so I don’t find a lot of strength in arguments that Nov 1 is too early of a cutoff.</p>

<p>JHS: my D has attended several road shows this spring, so yeah, it’s possible for H&P to go earlier if they so desired.</p>

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<p>It actually doesn’t assume that since my point was only about the problems with EA/ED and not the advantages of RD. That being said, I think RD does have considerable advantages otherwise I wouldn’t be engaged in this debate. For one, an RD only system decreases the disadvantage of low income applicants who are not aware that they are HYP material until late in the process. It does this by eliminating the advantage that applying early confers on the early applicant pool, which consists of a disproportionately low number of low income students.</p>

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<p>bluebayou: Allow me to speculate that your daughter is not among those disadvantaged students who do no know anything about Harvard or selective college admissions in general in the spring of 11th grade. It’s VERY easy to reach kids who are paying attention.</p>

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<p>This idea of kids who are “paying attention” is provincial thinking, in my opinion. There are many students who are paying attention to their education, and even thinking about college, who don’t really have any reason to consider schools beyond the state flagship until their first SAT scores come back (especially if there was a big jump from the PSAT).</p>

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<p>I agree that there is a fundamental difference in philosophy. Some of us agree that there are students who may get shut out of EA because they didn’t start thinking about the academic and financial ability to attend a school like HPUVA until their senior year. </p>

<p>Some of us think these students are unmotivated, have no vision and no ambition. And we don’t want them anywhere near our children whose college search was highly motivated, ambitious and visionary.</p>

<p>Some of us disagree with that assessment, and find real value in these students sharing the classroom and dorm room with our advantaged children.</p>

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<p>Let’s face it. This EA/ED discussion is wasting time. Eliminating EA is just a political stune of the Harvard president more than anything else. A future H president will not only bring EA back if he/her needs a political stune, he/her will start EEA (Early early action) in the name of global warming because the ppl already accepted by H in EA or EEA are not likely to apply to other shools and therefore save paper, fuels, trees, etc, etc. I am sure they can figure out much better reasons I can put down here.</p>

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<p>Yes, this has been said over and over on this thread, to which I (and possibly others) have replied that rather than eliminate EA over it, Harvard ought to begin its road show for disadvantaged students in their Junior year, and encourage them to take their SAT by the end of their Junior year.</p>

<p>No, EA/ED is not a win-win for everyone, because not everyone will be admitted. But it is a win-win for low-income students who apply since H is free.</p>

<p>Again, disadvantaged students who apply RD will still likely receive an advantage in their admissions due to their socioeconomic backgrounds.</p>

<p>Finally, I don’t think it is accurate to say that Harvard is probably looking for students who have not read a book on “How to be admitted to an Ivy.” Surely students of all socio-economic backgrounds who make an effort to understand the admissions process are preferable to those who intentionally remain ignorant of it.</p>

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<p>There is no need to inject this insulting vitriol into this discussion. Not one person on this thread (other than you) intimated that there was no value in admitting low-income disadvantaged students to Harvard.</p>

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<p>No, some people have very explicitly stated that they’re hesitant about “writing that check” if certain people can only get admitted if Harvard changes the system like it did. You weren’t one of them, to my recollection.</p>

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<p>You’re absolutely right. EA/ED is a win-win for those who apply. But if you don’t apply EA/ED, you’re at a disadvantage relative to those who do. Since low income students constitute a disproportionately small percentage of the early pool, low income students are at a disadvantage in gaining admission. I’m not saying that early action programs were designed with the intent of discriminating against low income students, but it really doesn’t matter since the result is the same. Your proposals to solve the problem might be effective in the long run, but the short run fix is to get rid of early programs. If over time, HPUVA feel that they have achieved their goals of increasing accessibility and visibility among low income students to the point that these students would apply early in proportion to their peers, then by all means, bring back EA/ED.</p>

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<p>The problem I have with EA is that it prohibits a class of students from applying – those who are dependent on financial aid. When I was applying to colleges, my parents forbid me from applying EA – and rightly so. My parents’ income was less than the yearly tuition fees at many of the colleges to which I applied.</p>

<p>Unless colleges make a commitment to meet 100% of calculated financial need without the use of loans for their EA applicants, then the whole EA system will naturally favor families with the financial resources to pay the freight.</p>

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<p>icemaker-</p>

<p>I agree that unless FA info is provided upfront (which I believe it should), ED schools would favor families with no financial issues. Since EA is not binding, however, it does not favor any economic class.</p>

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<p>I am VERY sympathetic to the students who come from schools and families that are unfamiliar with the college process. I think some of the posts here reflect some unawareness of how the college “search” process goes for even the best students in some schools that do not typically send students to out of state schools. My kids attended one of the better high schools in our fairly small southern town, and it was amazing to me not only how little information was provided to students about the process, but also how much MISinformation was provided. So much of the problem is knowing what you don’t know. </p>

<p>There are college “road shows” that go to some cities 2+ hours away, generally on school nights, and I think it’s unrealistic for most students here to attend. A Harvard rep came to our school two years ago and met with about 5 students that the guidance department selected, but no one from Harvard or any out of state school has been here before or since that I’m aware of, and I’m generally tuned in to such things.</p>

<p>When my D was in 10th grade, I suggested that she ask her precalculus teacher when would be a good time to take the Math SAT2. He told her that she could wait until the second semester of senior year, as it would only be used for placement purposes. I’m one of the better informed parents around our h.s., so I knew that was not the answer she needed, but I can easily see a student or a parent assuming that teacher knew what he was talking about and not inquiring further. </p>

<p>At the end of junior year, the guidance counselors here tell students they need to be thinking about college over the summer. That’s a bit late for students to plan a testing schedule that includes SAT lls and the regular SAT. It’s doable, but it makes it harder. I’ve had intelligent, generally well informed parents around here ask me what the SAT IIs are and why anyone would need to take them. </p>

<p>My D and a friend found themselves talking to a guidance counselor in the middle of their junior year, and the counselor asked them where they were thinking about going to college. When my D said “Maybe Columbia,” the GC said, “That’s a very expensive school,” and “You know you need to be careful about schools up north, because they have lots of drugs and sexual leanings.” </p>

<p>Another problem with schools like ours is that the group of students who might be qualified for the very top schools is very small, so out of state colleges and how to apply to them are not a common topic with most kids here. </p>

<p>I just don’t buy it that if a kid was really all that smart he’d necessarily figure out how to apply early. Sure, if he knew there was some reason to go seeking the information, and if he hadn’t been told by his guidance counselor that the school was out of reach financially, he’d probably be able to find the information and process it. But that’s not how it is at our school, and I suspect at many others.</p>

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<p>I don’t want you to unnecessarily repeat yourself. I checked your previous posts and saw that in #73, you cited “societal influences” as a reason why “many kids don’t know that Harvard is a possibility until very late in the process.” You then said that “eliminating early action programs [can] help solve the problems of class inequality in college admissions without causing any negative side effects for applicants.”</p>

<p>First, I think eliminating EA does little to solve the problems of class inequality in college admissions. Here’s my understanding of the politically correct rationale for getting rid of EA:</p>

<p>Most students who are admitted under EA are advantaged and rich. By dumping EA, we open these admitted slots to everyone, not just the privileged.</p>

<p>Will this help? Sure. But, I think it’s incredibly naïve to think that two extra months will convince many disadvantaged students to rise above “societal influences.” (Assuming Cornell isn’t an outlier, the time between the ED and RD deadlines is two months.) It’s too little, too late.</p>

<p>Second, I strongly disagree that it doesn’t cause any negative side effects for applicants. As others have said, you basically force a student who absolutely wants to attend school X to wait four more months before he can figure out whether or not he’s been accepted. Four months like that is not fun for anyone.</p>