About LACs [Pomona versus UIUC decision]

Applying to College
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I have a plethora of questions about LACs, and would love answers! A little goblin from the slums of Reddit’s A2C told me this was the website to come to.

  • To start it a little on a lighter and hopefully pithy note, what three words (or short sentence) could you summarize some specific liberal arts colleges with? I’m personally interested in Swarthmore, Pomona, and Reed, but answers containing other LACs would be more than welcome and helpful as well.
  • Are LACs looking for different things in applicants when compared to nation university admissions? For example, I know we’re generally in an interdisciplinary craze, but would LACs relatively look more for that trait (or any other characteristics of an applicant)? Just looking for an explanation in all the chaos that is class of 2029 admissions and college admissions as a whole.
  • Finally, how would an LAC education be perceived by employers or grad admissions? Would a top LAC (like Swarthmore/Pomona) be viewed similarly to, for exaggerated example, an ivy league (this phrase no longer deserves capitalization in my eyes, and yet I still use it…) school for all purposes? (and on a related note, while I yearn to escape my parent-instilled greed for prestige in situations where comparison can barely be made, how would the quality, prestige, and dare I say rank of LACs compare to universities?)
    • If you were totally very hypothetically advising a student who really liked LACs and got into a top 5 LAC but had to pay a lot for it while also getting into a top 10 state university having to pay only about half as much, what advice would you give the student? The student just wants this all to be over with.

Thank you so much for your answers in advance, and I apologize for the number of parentheses!

Let Pomona College no longer be assumed a community college by Uncle Paul!
Let Wesleyan University no longer just be ‘that one college in Bojack season six!’
Let Colgate University no longer dismissed as a toothpaste research lab!
Pitzer? I hardly know 'er! And nobody seems to know Pitzer!

LET THE LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES BE LIBERATED FROM THE SHADOWS OF DISREGARD IN THE PUBLIC EYE!!!

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What a fun one to offer an opinion on. My daughter applied to two LACs - if you include the public one she is at (they say it’s an LAC but 10K kids) and W&L - which she declined. The rest were big schools.

There’s many words that can describe LACs and other: small, tight, social, personalized and more. But many words can be described across the gamut. And don’t forget, large schools all contain LACs.

I’m guessing LACs are like other schools and looking to assemble the best class. The most selective likely seek diversity, commitment, strong academics and more. Others likely seek wealthy applicants. btw - more and more seem to be adding things like business, engineering, etc. - so they might see some shortfall they need to catch up with.

I don’t think most employers care about an LAC vs. a university. They’ll likely care (depending on the job) a Mechanical Engineering degree vs. Physics. Econ vs. finance, etc. if seeking a finance major, etc. But in the end, college is college. Now, some may have preferences for specific names but with the Internet, that’s less and less today but still exists. But that’s hiring manager specific to answer your question - but I don’t think employers care. But for those who seek name recognition, LACs definitely have less - than flagships - as example. But I work with people who went to both - but mainly universities - top notch, flagship, regional/directional and private but some LACs - mostly local to Atlanta. I work for a multinational.

As for grad school, grades, test scores, etc. matter - but for PhD on a per capita basis, they seem to do better. But at the same time, that’s likely selection bias - someone planning or desiring to pursue a PhD one day might lean toward an LAC vs. a university. He’s a feeder list by majors.

If I was advising a top 5 at high cost vs. a top 10 state university at half the cost, I’d go the state university - and not even top 10 but that’s because I have a value basis. But in the end, one should only pursue what they can afford. If your family can comfortably afford $90K and they’re willing to pay - or whatever the cost is, then that’s fine - it’s a personal call.

If you changed the equation and said I can go to Pomona for $90K or Occidental for $55K, I’d personally choose Oxy. Others would say Pomona - and if you can afford it. And then it might depend - do you have a niche career goal that might require a specific name. But take money out of the equation - because spending money is a family by family decision - and very personal. As for Pomona, Wesleyan and Colgate - you’ll be amazed by how many have never heard of any of them - as opposed to Ohio State, Alabama and Georgia.

But those who need to know - will know. Or won’t care- you’ve got a degree - and that’s what they care about.

There’s a lot of hypothetical and you will get all sorts of answers - but that’s my feel.

Top Feeders to Ph.D. Programs

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I am not sure that this is completely hypothetical.

Education in the US is generally quite expensive. However the price can vary a LOT among different schools. Of course there is also the option of going outside the US. Many students are constrained by their budget. The same student whose college choice was limited by budget, if they graduate without debt might then have significantly more options regarding what they do next (eg, some potentially very interesting first jobs might not pay well).

Quite a few of the highest ranked universities and LACs in the US give relatively good need based financial aid, but do not give much if any merit aid. There are quite a few academically strong students who have parents in the so called “donut hole” where they make too much to get need based financial aid, but do not make enough to feel comfortable paying something in excess of $90,000 per year per student. This problem can be made worse by some specific special circumstances, such as owning rental property or a small business, being recently retired or about to retire, or having a large number of children (and there are probably some other special circumstances that I have left out – perhaps the likelihood of taking on an expense graduate program might be one of them).

And you cannot expect an 18 year old to fully understand the consequences of going into debt. To me this implies that the parents need to be the “adults in the room”, and should set a budget that they can deal with comfortably, and need to stick with it.

Generally whether to pay more for one school versus another can be a very difficult decision. We each just have to do the best we can to make a reasonable choice.

To answer a couple more questions:

There are a huge number of very good LACs. I doubt that they are all looking for the same thing.

One daughter is currently studying in a very good PhD program. I recently looked at the other students in the same program. I was a bit surprised how many came from LACs. One or two came from highly ranked LACs (on the Bowdoin, Williams, Pomona level). However several more came from LACs that I had never heard of. Apparently graduate admissions are fine with students who attended any of a rather wide range of schools, including LACs, and including LACs that are not ranked in the top 20 or even top 50 by US News.

Smaller schools (what we could call a LAC in the US) are likely to have small classes taught by full professors. This can in some cases make it easier for the students to get to know their professors. This can lead to research or internship opportunities.

This research or internship experience can be well perceived by employers and by graduate admissions. Also, if the students know the professors and vice versa, the resulting letters of reference can be helpful.

For graduate admissions, or for getting a job, what the student did as an undergraduate student seems to matter a lot more compared to where they did it.

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First of all, I think you know quite a bit about LACs or you would not have been able to attempt the humorous jabs you made. They weren’t bad. The salient feature of the uniquely American small college or LAC is that they form tight-knit communities and produce very loyal alumni. I had the privilege of returning to my NESCAC alma mater the other day to lead a class discussion about a highly specific period of history that I had some firsthand experience with and as I looked around the room of about a dozen frosh, the one thing that stood out was how much they all looked like they wanted to be there; they exuded warmth and friendliness. What made it all the more remarkable to me was the fact that I knew just how tightly managed their time was: these kids value every minute of the day and yet several stayed after class to ask more questions and even rode with me down the elevator. I’m sure Yale and Harvard students have similar experiences but it’s different; I feel sorry that they will graduate knowing so few of their classmates. How you would go about putting a monetary value on all of that, I don’t know. I do know that LACs, in common with top private universities, put a lot of resources into keeping financial aid competitive with state flagship universities which are their main competition once you leave the northeast corridor of the US.

And finally, just for funsies, I thought I’d include this link which purports to be one outlet’s collection of “The Hidden Ivies”. You’ll notice about half the schools listed are LACs:

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A word I would associate with all three of the LACs you mentioned is “academicky”. Which is not a real word, I think in fact I might have made it up myself, but it is very handy in cases like this.

Then both Swarthmore and Reed probably need something like “hard-working” or similar attached, and Pomona . . . well, something a bit different. Not that kids don’t work hard at Pomona too, but my impression is it is more in the culture at those two LACs, similar say to Chicago for universities, whereas the vibe at Pomona is more . . . relatively chill? Something like that.

Then all three would need a word for setting, but I am not sure what would be best to use. Maybe just the city name and take it from there.

Sometimes! I think there can be a lot of common touch points in terms of general academic qualifications, also sometimes specific talents and such (including athletics). But LACs can sometimes be maybe a little more nichey in terms of exactly what sort of community they want to build.

So if you look at all sorts of placement statistics adjusted for student population size, you will see various LACs repeatedly doing very well, including in comparison to various Ivies and such. They have different areas of strength and just student interest, so a given LAC’s ranking in such studies may vary depending on the field/industry. But generally I think it is true that if you adjusted for not just student population overall but level of student interest, the “top” LACs tend to support competitive next step placements across a wide variety of fields in the same way as the “top” universities.

Of course I am using the word “support” carefully. The truth is we know so much of that is actually driven by individual and sometimes family attributes. The degree to which a college is actually adding value, as opposed to merely being a place a lot of such students from such families like to go, is very hard to sort out. So while it is nice to know that if everything lines up for you individually, your college will do a good job supporting your ambitions as well, I think that effect is far less critical, and indeed far less rare, than some believe.

I think the first question is what does the cost difference actually mean in the context of that family’s financial situation? For some families, that would not be a big deal, as they could just adjust some other plans and cover the difference out of existing savings and/or cash flow during college. For other families, it would mean having to take out a lot more student loan debt. And everything in between.

And I personally think it is not such a good idea to take out student loans beyond, say, the federal limits. I just think the need to service that debt can end up limiting your options at critical junctures in ways best avoided.

But if you can comfortably afford the difference without too much extra debt, then I think it becomes a matter of personal choice. I do think if you believe you would personally thrive a lot more in an LAC setting, you should seriously consider that, as again how you do in college can matter a lot. But if you are comfortable with the idea of working hard to get really good results at your state option, including both grades and networking with faculty and such, then that is fine too.

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As it seems you are happy for us to be frank and candid, I will confess I am unabashedly pro-LAC. While I’m not anti-university (one of my kids attended a university), I feel strongly that those who know, know why an LAC is a superior choice. Especially for highly regarded LACs, such as the ones you mention. And Bates. Because Bates is awesome. (Note my avatar.)

There are a lot of great LACs and the best ones (mostly Bates :grinning:) have: engaged, collaborative, friendly students; many diverse organizations and clubs; campus events that encourage students to remain on campus, rather than seek entertainment off campus…but also opportunities to get off campus for a variety of activities; small classes with close student and professor interaction; community engagement; strong alumni networks with active alumni; proactive career centers; ease in securing research and internship opportunities; strong reputations with employers and grad schools; and probably a lot more that I haven’t mentioned.

To be clear, you can get those things at universities too, but it typically isn’t as accessible at universities, and students might have to hustle more to take advantage of those offerings. It is common for professors to seek the LAC experience for their own kids. Kids at LACs develop great cognitive skills and can learn more deeply about various subjects.

Regarding the three colleges you specifically mentioned, My thought is that Swat is regarded as quite intense, Pomona benefits from the Claremont Consortium, and Reed is very intellectual. People who matter know those colleges. Any graduate of those colleges can easily perform as well as any graduate of MIT or Stanford.

If you are interested, feel free to read a few posts about my own kid’s experience of attending an LAC: this one, and this one.

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Agree.

With respect to OP’s question regarding whether LACs seek “different things in applicants when compared to national university admissions”, the answer depends upon the particular schools. Assuming that the schools are all highly competitive for admission, then LACs probably seek specific qualities more than National Universities as there are fewer spots available to build a diverse class after athletes are admitted.

Depends upon a few unrevealed factors such as intended major of the student, family ability to pay, and the names of the particular schools in light of the applicant’s preferences regarding major,career goal, geography, and similar desires.

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Which specific schools?
How much are parents willing to pay relative to the net prices?
Intended or possible majors?
Post-graduation goals?
Any other student preference factors in the decision?

Based on your thread at Chance me :) [IL res, 3.85UW, 1560 SAT, physics and English!] would you be a prospective physics and English major choosing between UIUC in-state and one or more of Amherst, Bowdoin, Pomona, Swarthmore, and Williams?

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Hello, hello dearest eight people!

I thought I should clear up and articulate my situation in a less jokey way and answer some questions:

  • First, I’ve pretty confidently narrowed my decision down to UIUC and Pomona.

  • Second, my information is given on the ‘chance me’ linked kindly above, with a few exceptions, mainly that my family’s financial situation has drastically changed since that time, and I’ve been having to navigate appeals. The appeals have not developed, but my family income is now around 30k-60k. The costs (with FAFSA submitted with old info) for Pomona are looking around 70k and UIUC around 40k. Pomona would have been manageable before developments, but I’m in a bit of a weird spot now, and will be depending on the financial aid appeal + the amount my parents have saved + scholarships + possibly small loans. That said, Pomona is still on the tougher end of doable according to my parents.

  • Third, my intended areas of study have not changed.

Addressing other questions:

  • Post-graduation goals:
    • Likely graduate studies, though I’m not entirely decided on whether I’ll pursue physics or English. I hope to figure out for sure in my time at college.
  • Career goal (similar but separate):
    • I believe I would like to remain in academia, and while unlikely, the dream job is professorship in the major I choose to pursue.
  • Geography:
    • A minor factor, but I don’t entirely love California. Mainly the weather, but I would probably accept having to wear shorts if I would be wearing them to a 10 person class taught by a renowned professor. One of the few times I would tolerate shorts. My goodness do I despise shorts.

Please let me know if I can answer any more questions!

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If you end up in English, find the cheapest option.

With the university system in flux, you might want to plan for a job and not academia. It’s too difficult to know that anyway.

If your family income is $30-60K, unless you have crazy assets, you certainly cannot afford $70K a year, or even $40K.

Both schools would be great for Physics - can’t comment on English but I’d imagine Pomona because you’d have a better chance to get to jobs like consulting or IB. English, itself, in the field, likely won’t bring great outcomes.

If the income has now dropped, there is a chance that future years at Pomona will come at a lesser cost.

Good luck.

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Will these schools re-evaluate this coming year’s financial aid based on the new circumstances? If the new circumstances are likely to continue, what level of financial aid is likely (based on net price calculators) in future years at each school?

Getting into a tenure track college faculty job is very unlikely, so be sure to consider what other more likely career directions you are interested in. Physics may have more options than English in this respect.

You do not have to wear shorts in warm weather.

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These comments were first posted on CC in 2020:

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These descriptions are somewhat true but likely some need to be updated. We’ve noticed a lot more attention from West coast kids around Bates, Bowdoin and Colby (lots of athletes but also others who love being in Maine and part of the CBB cluster). Bates, which used to get fewer applications in the past, was featured in Forbes last year for 10,000-plus applications (and apps are not free). I think what Bates is doing with internships, both locally in Maine, but also funded summer internships, is very cool and is helping students to find their path in the world. And the campus is stunning! University Of California, Northeastern, Bates College Get Record-High Applications

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Wow! Very different choices. We were in a similar spot 2 years ago. We are from Illinois, FWIW, but the gap in tuition was MUCH smaller as we got a very generous package from Pomona.
Mine chose Pomona and has never looked back. The 5 C’s offer so much, yet in a much more accessible package than UIUC
If LAC’s appeal to you, Pomona has it all, great education, great location, great community and so much opportunity. The evironment is very LAC though - no Greek Life, lot of Arts, “nerdy fun”, small classes, more writing, more advising for undergrads vs. a state flagship like UIUC. If that is what you want, I do not think you can do better than Pomona anywhere!
That said, the tuition discrepancy is significant and only you and your parents can determine if that is something you can manage.

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My kid attended Middlebury. They decided to take two years off to work, and applied for post-bacc jobs at three academic labs, in U Chicago, MIT, and Columbia. The received offers at all three, and ended up working at MIT for two years.

They started applying to PhD programs this past applications season. They only applied to programs which were top 20 worldwide, were interviewed at three, and received an offer to their top choice. They will be starting their PhD there this coming fall. This was their first and only application round, and this year was brutal in their field.

They have published articles, presentation in national conferences in their field, and are well networked.

Their best friend from college also took two years off to work, and has been accepted to their top choice medical school (their first application round). Another good friend from their small group will be starting their PhD at Yale this coming fall. All their other close friends from Midd are doing very well, those are just the ones I remember.

That is very true. However, LAC graduates have a leg up when applying for positions at LACs, and they have success in being accepted to PhD programs that have high placement rates.

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I agree. I think you need to reach out and ask Pomona to reconsider your Financial Aid package. We have had offers from both, and the Pomona FA was always better. As in, even though UIUC was our state school, it was still cheaper to go to Pomona. However, what pushed my first over the edge to Pomona was not the money, but the personalized relationships. With my other, it would definitely cost more for him to attend his state school (UIUC) than Pomona. Seems like a no-brainer, but we’ll see what he does!

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To me it is telling that when large U’s set up Honors Colleges they often do so along the lines of a LAC.

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