Above the Line/Below the Line and jobs...

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
1

<p>Film budgets have two sections: Above the Line (ATL) and Below the Line (BTL), which comes from producers in the past drawing a heavy line through the budget distinguishing:
[ul]
[<em>] Artistic costs (ATL) vs technical production costs (BTL)
[</em>] Those who influence creative direction (ATL) vs those who work to make the creative direction a reality (BTL)
[li] The parts of the budget with people you read about on the internet and in entertainment magazines (ATL) vs those whose names appear in the credits but would never be talked about in the tabloids.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>ATL costs for a film include the director, producer, screenwriter, starring cast, etc. BTL costs are for the rest of the cast and production crew and post-production people. More than half of the cost of a film might be in the few ATL items. When people think of making films, they are usually thinking Above-the-Line.</p>

<p>Films get green-lighted based on ATL (script, director, stars). Once funded, realizing the vision becomes the task of the BTL people (under the direction of the ATL people).</p>

<p>But the lesson here is not one of budgeting. It is about jobs and working in the industry. This budgetary distinction is important because it also happens to delineate among job prospects for various film industry jobs. It should be no surprise that BTL gigs are MUCH easier to come by than ATL ones. </p>

<p>But since ATL people are the ones you hear about and read about in the press, these professions are the ones most students have in mind when they go into film school. In many, many cases, that changes as students find particular passions that may fall BTL. This is a good thing! While fame and giant fortunes may not be forthcoming, the prospect of getting paid for what you are passionate about is higher. Film school might sometimes resemble a giant Pachinko game, as balls (students) bounce through the device, sorting themselves out and falling into their (career) slots.</p>

<p>For those whose passions remain “above the line,” it might be a long, hard road to recognition and any kind of a job (other than Best Buy or something similar). For those who sort themselves out below the line, the risks will be less, even if the rewards are not as great.</p>

<p>…just another approach to understanding how things might work out.</p>

<p>-Dig</p>

2

<p>Thanks, Digmedia.
Can a BTL person move ATL? Can a talented, driven, ‘uniquely’ skilled person prove themselves and move up? In other words, do ATL positions populate (sometimes) from the ranks? </p>

<p>Or perhaps all ATLs emerge whole and perfect like Venus on the halfshell, lol.</p>

3

<p>gladiatorbird… LOL…</p>

<p>I think anyone who goes to film school actually emerges with a set of talents: directing, editing, producing, cinematography, etc. I honestly think people might be able to cross the line from one into another. But I also think that as people settle in BTL careers, it would be harder.</p>

4

<p>There was a post here in this forum from somebody who said that all the directors he knew were screenwriters with degrees from universities like Northwestern or Columbia who worked as screenwriters for a while and later moved into directing.
People started arguing with him, of course.
I absolutely believed the guy.:slight_smile:
Can somebody find the post? I remember it but I don’t remember the topic.</p>

<p>If anyone here would bother to go to imdb and check some credentials it would be also obvious that some actors who worked as actors for a while also moved in different direction and started producing or directing. Just several very obvious names.</p>

<p>Clint Eastwood [Clint</a> Eastwood - IMDb](<a href=“http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000142/]Clint”>Clint Eastwood - IMDb)
Actor 67 titles, Director 35 titles, Producer 36 titles
Tom Hanks [Tom</a> Hanks - IMDb](<a href=“http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000158/]Tom”>Tom Hanks - IMDb)
Actor 68 titles, Producer 36 titles, Director 8 titles.
Leonardo DiCaprio [Leonardo</a> DiCaprio - IMDb](<a href=“http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000138/]Leonardo”>Leonardo DiCaprio - IMDb)
Actor 36 titles, Producer 12 titles</p>

<p>I always wondered why all these film schools give applicants false impression about real career opportunities. Of course these students would be able to direct and produce after graduation… music videos, commercials, industrials, educational videos, audiobooks, church videos, wedding videos…They will successfully use their film schools skills though some of them (skills) can be easily obtained at community college at much cheaper price.:slight_smile:
Red carpet in Hollywood and Oscar in your hands? You are kidding, right?</p>

<p>And I always wondered about all this obsession with “storytelling” abilities. What are screenwriters for and why future “directors” should substitute screenwriters?
Robert Rodriguez as a matter of fact was a terrible writer, he hated to write stories, he could easily vusualize them but not write. He had very hard time getting into RFT at UT because of his failing writing skills.</p>

<p>I really don’t know why film schools don’t inform students in advance that they should explore job opportunities in this BTL field because this is where 99% of them will land (of those who would actually stay in the industry and will not change filmmaking career to sales career or something similar).</p>

5

<p>gladiatorbird
Yes, they do. They usually start their own start ups/companies after gaining some real experience in the filed.</p>

<p>And to back up my previous hints about IT
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixar[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixar&lt;/a&gt;
IT background, not animation… Very high tech technology.</p>

6

<p>Ya Ya is right as usual, but the examples given of screenwriters to directors and “name” actors moving to directing are all ATL to ATL changes. I would think BTL to ATL is less common. I have also seen some wannabe ATL graduates who have taken BTL jobs.</p>

<p>When maddenmd and I were researching our book, I talked to one film school spokesperson who said (off the record) that only 5% of their grads went into the Hollywood movie industry. Many of the rest wound up working their craft in TV, corporate videos, commercials, and even wedding videos. Ya Ya is also right in that there are much cheaper ways to obtain those skills. On the plus side there are more BTL-type jobs than ever!</p>

<p>But the dream lives on…</p>

7

<p>Along the lines of what Ya Ya is talking about: does anyone know about the UC San Diego program ICAM? Son is also accepted there. This major is ‘Interdisciplinary Computing and the Arts.’ It’s more academic/research focused, but in the Visual Arts Dept. </p>

<p>[ICAM:</a> INTERDISCIPLINARY COMPUTING AND THE ARTS MAJOR | The Visual Arts Department at UC San Diego](<a href=“http://visarts.ucsd.edu/~gd2/icam-interdisciplinary-computing-and-arts-major]ICAM:”>http://visarts.ucsd.edu/~gd2/icam-interdisciplinary-computing-and-arts-major)</p>

8

<p>Thinking about the challenge of gaining experience/breaking into the industry: DS may have the opportunity to work with an American producer of successful, mainstream animated films. This producer is now working closely with companies in Shanghai–where animation/film are growing and dynamic. Son is making this connection himself (long story, contact made initially through H and friends). The producer has taken an interest and is offering advice: he says that the thriving industry in China is very hungry for creative content/skilled people and that they <em>love</em> Americans. We are thinking of sending DS to Dodge College (because he loves it and it’s so affordable–THANK YOU CHAPMAN!) and investing the money saved in summer trips to Shanghai. Or at least pursuing that direction…it may well pan out if he works hard.</p>

<p>Could this be a very helpful way to gain experience while he’s still in school (resume + connection building) or possibly useless? </p>

<p>Just trying to figure it all out… :)</p>

<p>P.S. This producer, when we talked to him about USC SCA (too expensive) vs. Chapman Dodge said, without hesitation: “Go to Dodge. Everyone in the industry knows it’s a great program. No question, go to Dodge and focus on gaining internships and experience.”</p>

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<p>Shanghai! :)</p>

<p>Just remember reading it recently. It’s a newsletter with some monthly information what UT RTF alumni are doing</p>

<p><a href=“https://webspace.utexas.edu/nbd232/News12.pdf[/url]”>https://webspace.utexas.edu/nbd232/News12.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
page 7

</p>

<p>I have a Chinese Sister-in-Law. She is from Hong Kong… I guess I need to talk to her about her relatives and friends. You never know. :)</p>

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<p>We are movin’ and shakin’ now, Ya Ya. :)</p>

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<p>A film school degree should be treated other “school” degree - e.g. engineering school, law school, medical school, etc. There are many areas of specialization or concentration in the field of work despite the fact that graduates just receive a generalized BA or MFA in Film. </p>

<p>Some students going in knowing exactly what they want to do out of school - screenwriter, cinematographer, director, set designer, production designer, lighting electrician, director, actor, editor, sound designer, foley, etc. Others have no idea and hopefully by the conclusion of their studies have a better idea. </p>

<p>Some dream of directing the next big summer blockbuster, under the heavy creative control of the studios and investors. Others find true freedom in their own creative freedom directing music videos or commercials. Still others enjoy the fast paced and off the cuff nature of directing TV. </p>

<p>Each area is a craft that takes many years to master, typically as you move up/sideways/diagonally thru ranks. Starting as a Production Assistant, you may one day be Line producer or a casting director and one day Producer. Or a camera assistant -> cinematographer. Actor -> Director. Editor’s Assistant -> Editor. Grip -> Set Designer. There is no set path, but you learn the ropes as you go. Sure there is also the path of producing your own work until you are “discovered” as well, which can often happen while one is also crewing on jobs to make rent. </p>

<p>ATL vs BTL may be how a studio sees the world, but from a film student’s perspective I think the lines are a lot more blurred than that.</p>

12

<p>Thanks, P-King and Digmedia. </p>

<p>I want to clarify what I said in post #8: I meant no disparagement of USC and my phrasing was unclear. DS loves the School of Cinema Arts, but we did not receive a viable FA package, so it’s “too expensive” for <em>us</em> (we don’t want any loans and are debt-averse). Chapman gave DS a great scholarship, so Dodge is affordable. In the absence of any scholarships, the price of the two schools is comparable. The advice we received from this producer was in the context of “Loans for USC SCA” vs. “no loans/big merit aid at Chapman.” In that context, he said both schools are great, so if there is a cost difference, “definitely go to Dodge.” Looking back at my post today I did not make that sufficiently clear.</p>

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<p>gladiatorbird,
I don’t know, I did not notice any “disparagement”. I saw excitement about making final decision/choice (a tough one) based on financial reasons.</p>

<p>The original post is absolutely great and originated probably in our previous discussion in another topic about a film school visit and how ALL the students raised their hands when asked “who wants to be a film director”?
ALL of them? :smiley:
People should understand the ratio of directors and the rest of the crew and expect what is reasonable.
So thank you, digmedia, for this topic! :)</p>

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<p>gladiatorbird, I’m a little sniff-sniff sorry that the financials did not work out at USC. However, Dodge seems to have a very exciting program and wonderful teachers. Your S is lucky to get a terrific scholarship. </p>

<p>I’ve worked in the entertainment business for a long time (Above the line–no one I know says ATL, dig, but maybe it’s because we’re so old?), and there are many paths. No one needs a degree in film, actually. I know a family whose S went to USC film school on a full scholarship, got a tattoo the first week he was there (!), got mesmerized by the Red camera, and dropped out of school to pursue all the jobs he had lined up. I’m not sure that’s what most parents have in mind when we research the perfect (ha) schools, figure out financial aid, etc. But I must say this young man had a lot of drive. He simply did not want to “waste” his time doing GEs and other college stuff.</p>

<p>One of the skills needed to get a foot in the industry door is the people skills to make connections, network, and keep in touch with all the execs, and producers your school helps you get in contact with. The more go-getter, make it happen, keep on plugging, make friends, know-someone-who-knows-someone (like that producer working in Shanghai) a person is, the more suited they are succeed at an ATL career. It takes more than talent and great work habits. It takes a lot of guts and, frankly, a good bit of luck too. Those whose personalities fit better with steady work and paychecks, great technical prowess, creative eye and spirit may find themselves a good career BTL.</p>

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<p>…didn’t mean to imply the abbrev ATL or BTL were actually used… I just did not want to type that many letters so many times… lol</p>

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<p>btw, madbean’s advice works just as well for below-the-line jobs as well.</p>

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<p>This is a great thread. Useful to us newbie families. I thank you all!</p>

<p>PS to madbean: Thank you for your kind thoughts. I believe everything is working out splendidly for DS. Dodge is surging with a can-do, come from behind optimism that seems a perfect match for our son’s temperament and outlook. </p>

<p>All is GOOD. :)</p>

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<p>gladiatorbird, in the recent past, several academy award nominees/winners have openly announced they were never admitted to USC SCA. Spielberg has said he was turned down 3 times. And Morgan Spurlock (Super Size Me) claims he was turned down 5 times!! (How is that even possible? lol) But I expect that in the near future there may be a cadre of award winners who may say: I turned down USC SCA.</p>

<p>The school is waaaay expensive. And so many new up-and-coming programs have so much to offer. I wish your DS all the best.</p>

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<p>LOL, madbean. Yup, the worst case scenario is that DS will say, “Oh yes…I turned down USC School of Cinema Arts to go to Dodge.” </p>

<p>(P.S. I may be his mom, but will add that it’s USC’s loss if incandescent, fiercely kind, hilarious, industrious, atomic-brain son chooses to go to Dodge, instead). :)</p>

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<p>gb… good luck from me as well. There is no wrong choice.</p>