<p>Many years ago, I attended a no-name school that would be unlikely to ever make an appearance on CC. There I studied whatever caught my fancy, from political science to photography. I took 21 hours a semester sometimes, just because there were so many interesting things to learn. I don’t recall ever having the slightest concern that the course load would be overwhelming or that a given class would be too difficult.</p>
<p>Thirty years later, things seem very different for my dd and her friends, who attend schools that are higher on the scale of academic rigor. Some of them take the bare minimum course load each semester, because they fear the work load or the damage it might do to their GPAs. Some stick to courses in “safe” areas where they know they can excel, regretfully bypassing classes on topics that sound fascinating but might forever dash their dreams of graduate school. Some look for the easiest possible classes to fulfill graduation requirements instead of choosing the ones where they would learn the most. One young man, who bucked the trend and chose a heavier undergraduate course load in order to get a double major, found that his graduate school options were severely limited because his GPA, while still excellent, was no longer as stellar as those of his peers.</p>
<p>I suppose this is part of the definition of “academic rigor.” I am sure the students are getting a much better education - in the courses they do manage to take - than I got at my less rigorous school. Still, I think it’s a shame that they don’t feel the freedom to explore their intellectual interests.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to say that today the academic is promoted at the expense of the intellectual. The difference is the academic is familiar with the facts of a discipline, while the intellectual is skilled at its practice. You so clearly covered how each of them are educated and thus created. Academics are easier to manage, just throw some more facts at them. Intellectuals require reasons and reasoning; if inadequate to our satisfaction, we will not be managed.</p>
<p>When I think of the Greatest Depression which struck us within the last few years and underwhich we are continue tol suffer, I am baffled at our general state of pacification. With the exception of Bernie Madoff, no major crooks have been prosecuted; and I suspect the only reason that he is in jail is he Madoff with the wrong peoples money. Our dear president, in whom we had so much hope, has consistently appointed the theives mastermind-mastermind as Napoleon Hill might invision it-as architechs of the recovery. Is it any wonder that we have not recovered? Where are our intellectuals, our independent minds who think for themselves?</p>
<p>We need Richard Pryor today, to point out the stupidity of our folly.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to say that today the academic is promoted at the expense of the intellectual. The difference is the academic is familiar with the facts of a discipline, while the intellectual is skilled at its practice. You so clearly covered how each of them are educated and thus created. Academics are easier to manage, just throw some more facts at them. Intellectuals require reasons and reasoning; if inadequate to our satisfaction, we will not be managed.</p>
<p>When I think of the Greatest Depression which struck us within the last few years and underwhich we are continue tol suffer, I am baffled at our general state of pacification. With the exception of Bernie Madoff, no major crooks have been prosecuted; and I suspect the only reason that he is in jail is he Madoff with the wrong peoples money. Our dear president, in whom we had so much hope, has consistently appointed the theives mastermind-mastermind as Napoleon Hill might invision it-as architechs of the recovery. Is it any wonder that we have not recovered? Where are our intellectuals, our independent minds who think for themselves?</p>
<p>We need Richard Pryor today, to point out the stupidity of our folly.</p>
<p>Pre-med or pre-law? Medical and law schools have a reputation about using GPA without regard to how rigorous a course load one takes, or accounting for grade inflation or competitiveness at different schools. Is this really the incentive that they want to give?</p>
<p>It does seem to be a contrast to the undergraduate admissions committees that favor applicants who took the “hardest” courses (honors, AP, etc.) in high school.</p>
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<p>Actually, it sounds like the opposite, in that the students are taking the least academically rigorous schedule possible, as well as not doing much intellectual exploration.</p>
<p>This is indeed bad news if it is true across the board. I have been telling my applied math/physics/Japanese major/minor daughter that people will look at the type of classes she took when they see her GPA, which isn’t bad, but isn’t the 4.0 she would have if she were majoring what I majored in. Guess we’ll jump off that bridge when we get to it–or she will.</p>
<p>The general talk around here is that graduate schools in academic subjects (e.g. math, physics, Japanese) are more likely to be impressed by taking the tougher courses, but medical and law schools are not.</p>
<p>I think the kids that get hurt the most take tough classes in both STEM and non-STEM fields, where they do not benefit from any overlap. This can hurt GPA in both fields, but if they try to enter a non-STEM field they will be doubly penalized as their GPA is compared to that of peers who did not take a heavy load of STEM courses.</p>
<p>Taking an Asian language (for non-heritage speaker) can also be very time-consuming and seems to place additional strains on a GPA if the other major is a particularly difficult one. From what people seem to be reporting, it does not seem to provide any advantage on an entry-level resume and I am wondering if, given the time and credits involved, it might be better to hold off on intensive language study until taking a gap year overseas after high school or college graduation?</p>
<p>I think it would be most interesting to see who the great minds and artists of our children’s generation will turn out to be. Hopefully I will be alive for another couple decades to witness their growth. I fear, too, that kids are too programmed to find “skill” careers. On the other hand I do hope that our masive public schools and under the radar liberal arts colleges are turning out the future thinkers and artists and writers. The story of what is a “better” education remains to be written fortunately.</p>
<p>I’m so glad that someone brought this up. I so often feel that the intellectual is derided here in favor of those focused on college as trade school.</p>
<p>Blame that on the cost of studying to a bachelor’s degree rising greatly (in inflation-adjusted terms). Also consider that a much greater percentage of the population has a bachelor’s degree than before, so a non-specific bachelor’s degree does not stand out as much.</p>
<p>Whereas a university education was once less expensive, and any bachelor’s degree stood out in the job market, so that students could afford to study to a bachelor’s degree and likely find a decently paying job afterward, today’s environment, where students are expected to take large amounts of student loans, and many bachelor’s degree majors do little or nothing to help job and career prospects, almost forces students to think about the job and career implications of their major.</p>
<p>Getting a liberal arts education without worrying about the job and career prospects of one’s studies is an expensive (up to $220,000) luxury available mainly to those from wealthy families. This is a rather unfortunate state of affairs.</p>
<p>The other thing interesting about this topic is that while undergraduate admissions committees look for applicants that took the most rigorous courses available at their high schools (honors, AP, IB, etc.) and give bonus GPA points in some cases, medical and law schools have the opposite reputation in supposedly not caring how rigorous the courses are behind the applicant’s GPA.</p>
<p>Does it really make sense to reverse the incentives in this manner?</p>
<p>This has been going on for decades. Just today at dinner, my H was telling a group of us parents of juniors about a friend of his from college. The guy was a fine arts major doing pottery. Shortly before graduation, my H asked his friend what his plans were. The friend said he was going to a top ranked medical school. He said he had taken the basic courses needed for med school and then majored in art to keep his GPA high. To this day, my H is still blown away by this guy’s strategy.</p>
<p>Why would he still be surprised? The way medical school admissions are said to work, a strategy aimed solely at raising GPA for medical school purposes would likely be something like:</p>
<ul>
<li>Attend a four year school with high grade inflation relative to a low level of competitiveness of other students.</li>
<li>Choose the major that is easiest to get high grades in, and take the easier pre-med courses (they may still be hard, but not as hard as the harder ones).</li>
</ul>
<p>Of course, such a strategy has disadvantages, such as not allowing for intellectual exploration or choosing a major that helps job and career prospects if one does not get into medical school.</p>
<p>It is pretty common to see this type of behavior. </p>
<p>Honestly, a majority of people don’t really care about learning anymore. They care about their grades first. When registration comes around, you find that the classes that fill up first are the ones with the easiest professors/class. It doesn’t matter what the topic is. It could be the dullest subject in the world and it would probably the class that fills up first. People care less about intellectual pursuit and care more about finishing their degree program with the best grades they can possibly get. It is pretty sad, but the truth.</p>
<p>College is not about “learning” to people anymore. It is just a means to and end to be competitive in the labor market.</p>
<p>I am enjoying this discussion and thanks to those of you who commented on the rigor of a program. Luckily, my DD wants nothing to do with law or medicine. </p>
<p>From the time she was little, my daughter was a sponge and learned many things on her own. When she went to college she was in a higher level calculus class that had a departmental final. She said that she wasn’t worried about the final because it was made up by one of the easier profs and hers was considered the hardest one. Additionally, her prof was Russian and had an accent; where most kids would complain about the accent, my little darling texted me her first day of class and said, “I am going to have a GREAT accent by the end of the semester.” What a funny kid.</p>
<p>What is interesting is how differences in incentives change student behavior in this respect.</p>
<p>High school student: “Should I take that sixth AP course next year to get that extra GPA point and look good on college applications, or will it be too much work?”</p>
<p>University student: “What are some easy A courses to take to boost my GPA [for medical or law school]?”</p>
<p>Ucbalum: maybe it is perhaps medical and law schools are not looking for intellectuals, after all? Maybe they think of themselves, ultimately, as vocational programs.</p>
<p>PhD programs, at least the best ones, are much more willing to look for evidence of scholarship in their fields.</p>
<p>I am beyond pleased at what my college son is getting in both areas right now. He is doing research and participating in so much at the highest caliber while still getting a fantastic education that I would put up against any. But this is what he sought. Both my boys who had specific things they wanted, got them from schools that are not really on that short list of the most selective. It had to be the seeker not the giver (the schools) that were active in this area.</p>
<p>I wanted my son to go to the ivy that accepted him and had specific profs who wanted him. Another school, a LAC also had some high flying plans for him. He took a more laid back approach, and now 3 years later is doing research and work of the highest order at a relatively unknown school, and getting paid top bucks for it. He has gotten internship offers and grants for his work. Didn’t matter where he went; it was his motivation and work that made it happen.</p>