Accepted to Princeton for REA (with good aid as well) but my mom thinks I'm jeopardizing my future if I don't still apply to Yale and Harvard

Correlation does not mean causation-- do NOT extrapolate from the relatively tiny class at Yale Law School to suggest that you’d have the best “chance” at clerking for a federal feeder judge. Yale specifically screens for different characteristics than the other top law schools-- so their students don’t end up clerking because they went to Yale, they end up clerking because Yale admits the kind of students who end up clerking.

Studying in a law library is of zero value in getting admitted to law school, just as eating lunch in the cafeteria of a med school won’t help you become a doctor.

You generally give good advice but your last post gets a “huh?”

Yale Law School won’t care if you studied in their law library, I promise you. There are many things they DO care about- but that one ain’t it…

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I’d be cautious about relying on conventional wisdom about grade deflation at Princeton as Princeton actually changed its policies a while back, but often conventional wisdom changes much more slowly than reality. Indeed, there are still parents basically echoing conventional wisdom from when they applied to college themselves.

Moreover, when people say GPA matters for law school, they sometimes seem to be suggesting top law schools would simply ignore something like a prominent college like Princeton having a stricter grading curve. That makes no particular sense and I am aware of no evidence to support such a hypothesis.

Again, we know that Princeton has always placed very well in top law schools. And that is undoubtedly because top law schools want the top students from Princeton. And if it was true that a top student from Princeton tended to have a lower GPA than a top student from a comparable college, then it is extremely likely top law schools have taken that into account, not just ignored it.

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I think that you are reading too much into my post.

Studying in any law library exposes one to aspects of law school & law students.

Yale Law School is the best at placing their students with feeder judges. And, yes, I understand YLS admissions & faculty input into the process.

Never wrote that YLS would care if one studied in their law library; the advantage is exposing one thinking about law school to a law school environment.

Depending upon what the OP plans to study during her undergrad years, she may have an opportunity to contribute to a research project affiliated with the law school.

Yale Law accepts plenty of Princeton grads.

And happy students get better grades. If you don’t want to be in a major metro area, Princeton is a better choice for you.

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Frankly, if you want exposure to what modern legal research looks like, you just need access to a Lexis or Westlaw account.

Otherwise, I will just note again if you look at the list of law school feeders per capita, there is obviously no particular correlation with having a top law school at the same institution.

Indeed, Chicago is down at 22, which is not bad for a college but nowhere near the ranking of its law school. Above it are Amherst, Princeton, Dartmouth, Williams, Swarthmore, Haverford, Brown, Pomona, St. John’s, CMC, Wesleyan, and Wellesley.

So, it might be cool to spend some time in a law library just for the atmosphere, but in terms of admissions, I really do not think it is at all relevant.

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I never wrote that it did; that was another poster’s misreading & misinterpretation of what I wrote.

One can learn a great deal about law & the legal profession by conversing with law students at an elite law school such as Harvard or Yale.

How about sleeping at a Holiday Inn? :wink:

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I’d actually push back on that too. Those students have yet to be practicing lawyers and potentially do not yet know much at all about what a legal career really involves. This is a large and well-known problem in the legal profession, that many people go to law school, including the top law schools, and then end up deeply discontent with law as a profession, with many eventually dropping out of it.

So to really gain a better understanding of the legal profession, I think you need to network with, and possibly shadow, actual working lawyers. I also think it would be a good idea to find and listen to people who dropped out of the legal profession.

I also think you should avoid the temptation to rush into law school straight after college. Go work for a while instead. Maybe do a different degree. Track your friends and acquaintances that go to law school and into practice. Who is happy? Who is not? Why?

My feeling is my colleagues who did that sort of thing tended to have a much better “hit” rate in the legal profession because we knew better what we wanted, we knew which paths to avoid and which things we actually needed to do, and so on.

I do not think chatting with some law students in a law library is going to be a proper substitute for that. Indeed, if anything they may be a particularly misleading source.

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You’re an adult and do not want to regret your life choices. It’s a simple conversation with your mom, who also wants the best for you: she was able to decide where she went to school, now it’s your turn to decide where you want to go.

daughter’s friend got admitted to Caltech REA, but really wants to go to her dream schools MIT/Stanford. She dropped out of all her other applications (UCs, John Hopkins, Columbia, etc) to focus on 2 applications. The only difference with you is that she wants to go to MIT/Stanford, whereas you want to go to Princeton.

Don’t waste the money, go buy your mom a nice dinner instead and celebrate your decision.

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How? My daughter is an undergraduate at the University of Michigan, which has a T14 law school. She studies in the law library all of the time. She doesn’t feel that she has been exposed to any aspects of law school or to law students, aside from sometimes being in the same room as they are in the quietest building on campus. The Michigan Law Library might be the least likely place to strike up a conversation with a law student as talking is practically verboten there.

Parents often have a lot of anxiety about trying to make sure our kids have the best opportunities in life, and I imagine that anxiety is even greater in some situations for parents who are less familiar with the interworking of certain systems and institutions. The existence of College Confidential is a product of that kind of anxiety!

How have you and your mom discussed the issue? Have you had the chance to explain your point of view? Could you try to revisit the issue calmly, with the information you provided in your post as well as some of the supporting information about grade comparability and Princeton student success that some of those who responded to you mentioned?

What is your intended major at Princeton? Does Princeton have any advantage over the other schools in that area?

Whatever happens, you have at least one amazing option…and will possibly have three. I hope that you end up at Princeton, but if for any reason you are coerced into going to Harvard or Yale, please embrace those opportunities with an open mind and heart. You will be able to succeed and achieve your goals at any of those schools.

Good luck talking to your mom! It sounds like she has your best interests at heart, so perhaps if you could show her evidence of the advantages of Princeton, she will see it your way.

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Are you prepared to spend the remaining few days of vacation putting every ounce of effort into submitting outstanding applications? If not, don’t waste your time. Or, if you really don’t care what kind of app you submit, just throw the app in to appease your mom.

Your mom is totally wrong on everything. If she thinks any law school is going to reject you because you went to Princeton over Yale or Harvard, she honestly is clueless. And that includes internationally. Here’s another way of thinking about it: Would you want to work for any allegedly prestigious law firm that hasn’t heard of Princeton? We all know the answer to that.

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Three quick thoughts; disregard any if they aren’t helpful.

First, I was chatting with my dad — who got a law degree at Yale before going on to become a law professor for about a hundred years — about your situation, and his encouragement was to go to Princeton for undergrad and to not give the other schools a second thought.

Second, in support of the “yes, Princeton” argument: As much as we (here on CC) deride the US News “best colleges” lists (and for very good reason; please nobody think I’m actually defending them for the general case; not taking questions at this time, etc. etc.), I wonder if it might be helpful to strategically invoke it with your mom — after all, Princeton is the nUmBeR OnE sChOoL on the list; Harvard and Yale are a couple of notches down. If prestige has a lot of value for her, perhaps citing Princeton’s spot above the other two on that list would help her feel more at peace about your happily going there and not bothering with the others.

Third, I want to acknowledge the tricky position you’re in with your mom. As others have noted in this thread, she’s clearly proud of you and wants the best for you, and I know that conversations with Parents With High Expectations can require nuance and tact. (Contradicting an earlier poster in this thread, I don’t think it’s “a simple conversation”.) So you have my thoughts and best wishes for approaching those conversations. That being said, as both a lawyer and a judge, your days will be filled with strategic conversations that require nuance and tact. This situation, right here, could be a good opportunity for practice.

Good luck with it, and congrats again on having such a great path forward.

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I can see both pros and cons to applying:

Pros: Would placate your mom. Might result in a better aid offer which you could use as leverage to get a little more money. Your desires may change between now and May 1st.

Cons: May result in an even worse round of negotiations with your mom if you do get into either. If you don’t get into either, then you might lose confidence thinking “I only got into Princeton because I was hooked due to being a legacy” (although you shouldn’t think this way, because you are a strong candidate in any case!). The stress and cost of the applications.

Either way, it’s probably not a huge deal.

Your mom is breathtakingly, profoundly, and absurdly wrong. There are a million reasons why you may or may not become a judge but whether you went to Princeton, Harvard or Yale will not be one of them. (Why anyone would actually want to go to Harvard in this climate is beyond me, but that’s a different topic for a different day.)

The harder question is how to handle your mom. If you’re relying on her for financial support, then she obviously has a say in the decision. If so, I think you have no choice but to apply to the others and hope not to get in. Because if you do, my guess is your lifelong dream of going to Princeton will be dead.

If you’re not relying on her for financial support, then it’s time to act like an adult and say, “I love you mom. I really appreciate your support and know you have my best interests at heart, but this is my decision.”

ETA: Nine Supreme Court justices undergrad university: Princeton - 3; Harvard - 2; Yale -1; Columbia - 1; none of the above - 2

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There is an easy way to get rejected from ANY college.

Start your Harvard essay with “Ever since I was a child I’ve wanted to go to Yale”. Start your Yale essay with “Ever since I was a child I’ve wanted to go to Harvard”.

Problem solved. Don’t overthink this. I have a friend whose parents forced her to apply to a college she had no intention of attending. She wrote her essay on how fundamental it was to her sense of self and ethical compass to get a Bachelor’s in Social Work (yup, the hated college did not offer a degree in Social Work) and she actually got a personal letter back with her rejection letter saying “You sound like a very special person and will make a wonderful social worker-- after attending college somewhere else”.

You can do this! Or just apply to both and assume that the gods of statistics will put you in the reject pile-- like most H and Y applicants!

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Princeton USED to have grade deflation- only 35% could get an A, which is… par for the course at many universities and even high in STEM. Point being, it no longer does that! So even that “grade deflation” no longer exists and most students get As. Unless you plan on being in the bottom third at Princeton you’ll be fine at Princeton for whatever you want to do. And even if you’re in the bottom third at Princeton, you’ll still have access to Princeton’s resources, network, opportunities… and you’ll do well.

Ps: this is actually crazy. :scream:OMG YOU GOT INTO PRINCETON!!! :confetti_ball: :sparkles::christmas_tree:

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Your mom is well intentioned, but breathtakingly clueless on this matter. I’m sure with your brains you can bring her up to speed.

Congratulations on your acceptance to your dream school, Princeton, which has a wonderful emphasis on undergraduate education. Seems like a no brainer, go for it, and don’t waste your time this holiday on meaningless further applications.

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Thank you everyone for your advice! I noticed there was some confusion about my major, so to clarify: I want to major in Public and International Affairs at SPIA, which used to be the Woodrow Wilson school at Princeton. At other universities, this would be International Relations. Not sure how much that changes things though.

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Not at all. If you want to go to Princeton, go to Princeton. :partying_face:

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Since you REA to Princeton, hopefully mom knows - that’s the place.

But you said this:

It’s my dream to become a lawyer (and eventually a judge),

Judges come in all shapes and sizes, from prestigious and non-prestigious schools - from local/county to federal, etc.

The one for my county just appointed - a non ABA graduate.

I know you’re likely seeking higher level - but there’s lots of judgeships of varying type - and there’s likely lots of undergrads from those three schools who attend law school - at non top 14s.

Get to the right place for you…do your best, get involved, make an impact on campus and the grad school part will take care of itself.

Congrats on such a FANTASTIC admission.

It’s time to become your own person…hopefully that happens at Princeton. Mom had her youth and upbringing. Now it’s your turn!!

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