But wait…some of those “pay to play” clubs help families out who are in financial need. Some of the clubs will give “scholarships” to players in need quietly. I would hate to see this help work against a child.
Which is why it is dangerous to make the blanket statement: pay-to-play = bad.
A very large percentage of extracurricular activities do cost money, so they are “pay to play” to some extent.
The main exception would be working at a paid job.
Perhaps the stigma mainly applies to expensive activities that have little real effect. A few years ago on these forums, it seemed like “mission trips” or “charity trips” were commonly mentioned as examples of extracurriculars that mostly indicated that the applicant came from a family with lots of money.
So, here’s my take. (Yes, my kid did a pay to play session this summer) - Screw it. If they got something out of the programs and they enjoyed them, list them. It’s part of who they are. If it rubs an adcom in the wrong way, well, there will be another school that wants your kid.
A lot of ECs don’t cost. It doesn’t cost students to be in choir, student govt, debate, on the math team, in robotics, in standard school sports. Or to volunteer with the needy, play a role with their own religious or cultural group, work with a local advocacy group, or take an internship of some sort.
Nor should there be stigma attached to some of the summer college or enrichment programs. (Many of those do offer funding.) The issue is balance in what the student does, over time. Some personal, some peer, some community.
In fact, many “mission trips” (the name seems almost generic now, whether or not there’s religion behind it) are serious work at low cost. In cases, the group is fundraises over time to raise the money. That’s different than the old ‘hold the orphan babies’ trips where they spend more time at the hotel pool or sightseeing.
OP would need to give us some idea of what her son did. “Pay to play” is about emphasis on play, not the fact that there was a cost to participate.
OP: I have not read anything but the original post in this thread. My thought is that everything is relative. It depends upon the target school, the activity & the applicant’s profile/experience/interests/accomplishments.
Blanket statements–broad generalizations-- aren’t worth much until applied in a specific situation. And that is my blanket statement.
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In fact, many “mission trips” (the name seems almost generic now, whether or not there’s religion behind it) are serious work at low cost. In cases, the group is fundraises over time to raise the money. That’s different than the old ‘hold the orphan babies’ trips where they spend more time at the hotel pool or sightseeing.
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Yes! This.
Generalizations and blanket statements just aren’t helpful. Do not worry about having your child put down their “pay to play” activities. There is space to describe said activity and that’s where your child can personalize why it was important for them.
“some of those “pay to play” clubs help families out who are in financial need. Some of the clubs will give “scholarships” to players in need”
Much like the Ivy League schools themselves…
We don’t know the context in which the professional college counselor was making this statement. I can imagine a scenario where a parent was enthusiastically rattling off a laundry list of expensive, showy activities in which they wanted to enroll their kid, and the counselor was trying to pull them back (there is such a thing as having too many). Another scenario is one where a family was concerned that their inability to pay for the most expensive activities would disadvantage their child and the counselor was reassuring them that it would not.
All of these things had a cost in the schools my kids went to. Sports were $850-$1500, bring your own equipment. Some were not that expensive, but a $100 for theater or travel to the robotics competitions add up.
I think the caution on the application should be that the camps and teams and volunteer trips to Mexico are not a free pass, that it is not enough just to list the activity and expect the AO to be so impressed that he waives the student right into Brown or JHU. They want to see more about Space Camp. They want to know that the youth group spent 3 years fundraising to go to World Youth Day in Poland and what part this student played in that fundraising effort.
But this OP seems to be paying for a professional counselor.
What matters is what the program is and how valid. If a seemingly low SES kid has a pricey program on the EC list, an adcom won’t assume the family is secretly rich.
This whole notion OP has to hide the activities because they’ll appear “privileged” is pretty bogus. The parent’s occupations and educations will appear on the Common App. Adcoms will know the hs demographics. They know there are parents who can afford these things. CC worries about privilege, but adcoms will look for what the kid DID do, the fuller context: high school EC choices and commitments, what sort of vol work, what activities related to the major.
A program every summer doesn’t reduce his chances. What could be unusual or a flag is ONLY summer programs, nothing in the high school or community. Or only the sort of for-profit programs that claim to be so selective but are not. Etc.
The GC can mention the debate team raised the funds for Poland. A lot of low SES kids in border towns ARE doing service in Mexico. They ride the bus.
There’s only so much room for the applicant to explain everything.
I do think applicants should be careful not to flaunt their privilege. That said, I think it’s possible to balance the EC list.
My kid did a very expensive sport (now his career) that was not recruitable, and thus of little value to colleges, and that involved paying for international travel. As a stand-alone it oozed privilege. He also became heavily involved in the food pantry down the street, volunteered at a local nonprofit farm, and worked summers in a warehouse moving building supplies.
I can’t say how his application was received but I don’t think admissions would have gotten a good idea of who he was without the inclusion of his sport.
I wonder if the adcom also was thinking about the tendency to exaggerate volunteer hours on paid trips? For example, a friend’s daughter (who had already graduated from high school so it doesn’t matter in her case anyway but I’m just using her recent trip for the numbers) went to Bali for around 10 days this summer with a ‘voluntourism’ group and spent some of the time doing sightseeing and some doing actual volunteer work there. A conscientious kid would put down something like 25 volunteer hours for that trip. Someone else might try to claim the entire trip (240 hours) as volunteer time. (I don’t know how common that is, but I wonder sometimes when I see the lists of ECs that some of these kids post and wonder how they fit it all in).
My kids were very much into ballet. They got into some very prestigious summer intensives (a lot of people auditioned for them), but we had to pay. D1 got into our state’s governor school for dancing and it was free, but I am not aware of many summer dance programs that are free. As a matter of fact, I am not aware of many summer activities that are free other than volunteer work.
I think this counselor needs to take a chill pill.
If they are authentic and fit with interest, list them. I believe the comment is relevant to many paid activities that are done for resume padding. I live in a zip code where kids do programs so they can “check that box”. It seems pretty clear that the activities were picked merely to create an impressive college application. Lots of "leadership " camps for kids who were “recommended” or “selected” by their school.
@otterma , the context was general advice to everyone/anyone (a group of people who were getting group college admissions advice/consultation with her for a fee with her a paid private college counselor) . and in what she was saying, it referred to ALL - I mean ALL - expensive endeavors, CTY, ivy pre-college high school programs, specialized academic or sports programs, ANYTHING-- no matter how selective to get accepted and no matter how challenging to complete and no matter how valuable an experience they were; she adamantly said, repeatedly , that if the summer endeavor cost anything significant, it may be a turn-off to AO’s and at the least it wasn’t going to count for much (even if it fit the student’s interests ; and if it were free, only then it would be an impressive amazing activity). A lot of parents protested and she held her ground, said that’s how it was viewed by AO’s at her ivy league university where she was a high-up associate admissions director for many years (not long ago). She insisted that if it would be included anywhere in the application, it should be included way down low in the list and attention to that summer program (no matter how amazing the student’s accomplishment in getting admitted to and completing the summer program was) MINIMIZED.
(It doesn’t make sense to me, and we feel we have no choice but to ignore that advice, but it’s making me upset and nervous!)
Most expensive summer programs are open to anyone willing to write the check for tuition. The admissions officer was just restating what MIT says on its website; such programs provide no admission boost ( why would they?). If your program was uniquely selective or produced an extraordinary experience for the student, that could be discussed in the application to your benefit. But 90% of the brochures we get for pricey summer programs are not for such programs. Also remember the AO has a different sense of selectivity-Some may think CTY is selective,but others would say that the standards are low enough (at top 5 % or whatever) that almost all the ivy applicants would qualify, so no big deal. Same with sports camps or dance camps or any other type of summer experience. Yes, they may take only the top 25% of applicants. That is still much more than many ivy colleges.
I wonder what college she worked at and what colleges she is referring to. My kid’s application had multiple pay to play experiences and I don’t think that hurt her at all at Brown. In listening to my kid talk about the other kids she’s met, it seems like they all have plenty of pay to play experiences, and in fact most of those experiences are an important part of who those kids are and is part of what makes those kids interesting people. As an example, one kid did a very expensive summer program for kids interested in medicine. Doing the program isn’t impressive per se, but when an AO looks at the kid’s HS transcript and sees AP bio, AP chem, anatomy, etc, looks at the kid’s other ECs and sees volunteering in a nursing home, and reads that the kid wants to become a doctor, I think it’s helpful to list the expensive program because it shows a further commitment to and interest in the field. I agree with the other poster that if a kid just lists a variety of expensive experiences with no common theme or further showing of commitment, this is problematic.
I think this is a great question. We have heard the same thing from a few people in the know but in reality there are just so many things these kids can do without spending some money. My son did an engineering camp every summer at different locations and in different disciplines to see what he was interested in. One at Milwaukee school of engineering summer of 9th grade then chess camp (higher end players only). Then Michigan State for robotics in 1Oth grade then 5 week accelerated per Calc.at his high school. 11th grade - Berkeley engineering then Northwestern University for a year of statistics in a 3 week accelerated class. This is what he calls “fun”.
There were great financial aid for kids that needed it. He did some other things also but any school would see he had some interest in engineering. During his 11th grade he did a year of engineering with Ace Mentoring after school.
Yes he is lucky but he needed academic educational programs. Just who he is. Classes at Northwestern and or University of Chicago were insanely priced. He attempted research positions but very few for high school kids.
But I do think the "I went to Mexico with my family then volunteered why I was there is kinda looked down upon.
I personally think if you are doing programs to better yourself and are educational then this can only be perceived as a positive.
To advise (insist) to avoid “ALL - expensive endeavors, CTY, ivy pre-college high school programs, specialized academic or sports programs, ANYTHING” is just plain off. You do have to use judgment, how to list and where.
Remember, “Pay to Play” refers to play. The one or two week “leadership” tour of DC or observing surgery and talking to doctors is not a highly competitive academic experience where a student works.
We’d need more info on what programs this student did.