<p>Yes, Missypie… We Need to Talk About Kevin was chilling.</p>
<p>I feel like there is a conflict between, “people are not born sociopaths” (or insert your word of choice here), and “you can’t parent away mental illness.” And I absolutely believe you CAN’T parent away mental illness. My own family’s experience as demonstrated that, and I know many of the parents here can relate. If we can’t parent away depression or bipolar disorder, why would we believe we can parent away this? I am afraid we are believing what we want to believe, because the alternative-- that this could happen to anyone, is too much. People who think this could have been parented away, do you also feel that way about depression? </p>
<p>I can understand where you are coming from, Hunt. I don’t want "we really don’t know enough to say with any authority what exact.y could have been done " (which is what I am saying, although I’ll add “apart from the guns” since nobody is arguing he should have had them) to be distorted into, “nothing could have been done,” and I REALLY don’t want “nothing could have been done” to be distorted into, “we as as a society don’t need to talk about this,” especially where gun control is concerned. So, I can agree with you there, and I hope you don’t think that’s what I’ve been saying. I am saying I don’t think we know enough to say anything with any authority, and that we are potentially obscuring real information by making grand declarations with the little half-truths we have to go on, but I fully support anti-gun legislation. Pro-guns is not my agenda.</p>
<p>I agree with you, Ema. The best parents in the world might not have been able to save this young man. They might have been able to cut the losses, though.</p>
<p>I love the expression “parented away.” </p>
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<p>I used the phrase “kicked out of the house” figuratively (and mistakenly assumed most people did. I mean, did you think I meant kicked him with her foot in his rear, too?). I said he would need to find somewhere else to live. Shouldn’t his father, who was purportedly dying to help his son, take him in? Or Peter and Nancy could get him an apartment somewhere. But really, the idea is that a son needs to understand that if he wants to continue living under his parents’ roof, the parents have the right to make the rules, and he has to behave in reasonable ways or find somewhere else live. Is that confusing, as well?</p>
<p>My line of thought was in response to the numerous claims that “there is nothing the parents could have done,” or if even if one thing was changed, of course he would still kill masses of people. I’d like to ask those of you with this opinion, would you have done anything differently if you were Adam’s parent? (and yes, of course we are talking about hindsight - what is wrong with that?) I feel like I would have. That is what I am trying to get at.</p>
<p>I’m glad that you clarified, Bay. In other discussions on CC about adult children living at home, when parents have spoken about kicking a child out of the home, they have meant that they would no longer financially support the adult child. I understood that to be what you were suggesting in the case of Adam Lanza, and I was surprised. Throwing a mentally ill child out on the street didn’t seem like what you would support, and yet you (as I read it and as other commenters read it) seemed to be proposing exactly that.</p>
<p>But then we come to what you are really proposing. Does being set up in an apartment sound like something Adam Lanza would have opposed? Does it sound like something that would have benefited him?</p>
<p>And saying that maybe he should have moved into his dad’s house is not much of a suggestion. After we hypothesize that Nancy Lanza should have secured the guns (which we all agree on), we’re left with your house rules. Would Adam Lanza agree to therapy if he lived at his mother’s house, at his father’s house, in his own apartment? No, no and no, evidently. </p>
<p>Here’s a thought experiment: imagine that there were no guns in the house, but otherwise the situation was the same. Nancy Lanza comes to you for advice on what to do about her son. What, exactly, do you tell her? It’s pretty hard to answer, since he’s an adult and can’t be forced to accept treatment.</p>
<p><a href=“Mental Health Treatment Didn't Stop Adam Lanza”>Mental Health Treatment Didn't Stop Adam Lanza;
<p>Let’s be realistic: Nancy Lanza didn’t just have one unsecured gun in the house, She had many. And she actively TRAINED Adam to use guns, and ENCOURAGED him to do so. She actively encouraged him in gun violence. </p>
<p>Would Adam have become a mass murderer if he were in the care of a parent who was not a–according to some friends or acquaintances–somewhat paranoid gun owner, and actively encouraged in shooting throughout a goodly part of his adolescence?</p>
<p>No one can say. I tend to doubt it. Certainly, Aspies are not known for being violent. Clearly, Adam had mental illness in addition. The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent. The vast majority of people with mental illness probably do not live with parents who encourage them to shoot guns, either.</p>
<p>It seems pretty clear that well before the end Nancy was in dire need of mental health care herself. She had entered into a universe controlled by Adam’s illness. Things like this happen insidiously. It becomes like the weather, the air one breathes. It is easy to see the dysfunctionality from the outside, but very difficult to see from inside the situation. I think that Peter was drawn into it too. </p>
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<p>My first piece of advice would be to seek counselling for herself. The second would be to call NAMI. The third would be to work toward moving Adam out into another living situation, preferably theraputic, but if he would not agree, an apartment paid for by his parents with an allowance for his other expenses. My thought would be that this would help Nancy regain her feet, possibly stimulate Adam to break his isolation, and at worst case provoke some kind of interaction with civil authorities that would result in forced institutionalization/theraputic attendtion for Adam.</p>
<p>Good question Hunt. </p>
<p>I would encourage Nancy to join NAMI, <a href=“https://www.nami.org”>https://www.nami.org</a>, and seek out a support group for parents with adult children with mental illness. I’ve mentioned this previously, it is not necessarily about Adam being “in therapy” but learning how to understand and manage his illness. Many parents find the peer support and education a lifesaver as it reduces their own isolation and possible shame. It also creates a network for socializing and providing respite care, a break from the “caregiving”. </p>
<p>I would advise her to also locate an experienced mental health professional so she could share her observations about Adam for guidance on how to parent her troubled young adult son. This mh professional could help her understand and identify high risk behaviors, that might require intervention. </p>
<p>Third I would suggest she get emotional support for herself, informally with friends/family or with a therapist to address her own needs, to deal with divorce issues, and the need for her to balance care for her son with building her own life. This might also include her open communication with her ex husband to share the burden and permit another set of eyes on their son. </p>
<p>Nice post, Consolation. I agree that once you remove the guns from Adam’s circumstances, it is a completely different story, and extremely unlikely, and probably almost impossible, that the same tragedy would have occurred. There are thousands and thousands of Aspies and young adults with mental illness, and almost none of them commit mass murder, so Adam’s lack of submission to therapy alone did not seal his fate as a mass-murderer, imo. </p>
<p>I also agree that there were things that could have been done that might have worked to motivate Adam to go to therapy. The carrot and the stick strategies: bribery first, then taking away privileges, and finally sending him to live elsewhere (“kicked out”) could very well have worked. Even one more set of eyes regularly on him could have made the difference. And while it is possible that he still may have been able to obtain the guns to commit the crime, it is much, much less likely he would have been able to do it, without being forced to interact with strangers to obtain the guns, which seems unlikely that he would do.</p>
<p>I’m wondering what you’re all picturing happening when Adam moves into this paid apartment. Do you not picture him locking himself in the apartment and refusing to come out instead of locking himself in his bedroom and refusing to come out? Do you not see him refusing to communicate any way but email, just like he did at home? Is that not even fewer eyes on him-- I thought we were saying there weren’t enough eyes? I don’t get that angle. I can see how a change to an environment that is controlled by someone more adept than Nancy was could have been beneficial, not getting how putting the mentally ill autistic person in his own apartment is helping… parents of perfectly mentally healthy aspies fear, rightly, putting their kids in a college dorm, for goodness sakes. What am I missing? How is living alone less isolating than living with mom? And who’s to say the threat of being put up in his own apartment wouldn’t have rewarded any negative behavior? Would that not be a reward to any other 20 year old? Perhaps with THAT kind of isolation, he could have had the space to plan something even more catastrophic. We don’t know.</p>
<p>If what we really mean is “anywhere but with Nancy,” then okay, I can see that. The co-dependency did need to be broken, if that’s the main point we are trying to make. I think the key here may well be Nancy’s paranoia and her attitudes about guns. It may well be that learned attitude about guns, combined with his mental illness, that threw him over the edge. </p>
<p>I also think it’s just as possible that Adam was just very sick. It sounds like he was in complete mental anguish for much of his life, especially as he got older. Pain has a scary way of numbing people sometimes. Maybe that numbing was just enough to dehumanize him enough to do this. Maybe he was separated from reality enough that he decided to do this, did it, and died before he ever processed how he would truly feel about it once it actually happened-- it is a pity, I think, that so many of these killers die before we have a chance to find out if they EVER experience remorse. We have no way of knowing why he did what he did or how, maybe somebody out there-- Peter, or a researcher, can figure it out, but we aren’t going to accomplish that here with the information we have available. I can’t help but think that, without a crystal ball to really give us the answers, we are theorizing for entertainments sake at this point. We’ve operated on pure speculation for over a dozen pages now.</p>
<p>A case that comes to mind is TJ Lane in Ohio, who shot up a high school cafeteria in Chardon, OH a few years back. He shot a few kids, then ran out of the school and was caught and tried. At first, he claimed insanity, he was severely depressed and supposedly remorseful. But at his sentencing, he showed up smirking in a shirt with “KILLER” written in permanent marker, and said things to the parents of the deceased that I have blocked from my memory. There was video of this available on the internet, I watched it and it turned my blood to ice. It was like watching some kind of animal rather than a person. I wonder how HE ended up the way he is. What other differences and similiarities were there? It isn’t enough to just consider Adam Lanza, if we really expect to find answers.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine what kind of person could dedicate their life to research this stuff to the extent that it needs to be researched. These cases facinate me, in an “I’m upset and I’m going to obsess about it because I irrationally think it will help” kind of way, and it eventually reaches a point where I have to stop thinking about it for fear my brain will break. </p>
<p>Wow, Ema. Apparently his lawyer appealed his sentence today.</p>
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<p>His attorney also stated:</p>
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<p>Ema, part of what I think could have happened if Adam had been living in an apartment is that he could have been unable to manage it in a way that would have ended in a crisis that brought the attention of the police and ultimately the civil authorities. I realize that this could have resulted in Adam’s death or incarceration, and while that would have been very sad, it would not be as sad as what actually ensued.</p>
<p>If people haven’t listened to the audiotape of Adam’s call-in regarding the chimp, they really really ought to. There is a link earlier in this thread.</p>
<p>Okay, now Nancy Lanza should have called a national organization for a referral to a support group for the mothers of mass murderers. Problem solved.</p>
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<p>Oh, yeah, that’s great advice. Mom, put your mentally ill child in his own apartment. Then the police will either shoot him or put him in jail! Problem solved!</p>
<p>Speaking as a mother of a kid with Aspergers, that is not advice I am likely to heed. While I acknowledge that if Nancy Lanza knew what was going to happen, she would have preferred him in jail or even shot by the police, I can’t see that this advice is going to be well received. Nancy Lanza wanted her son healthier, not dead. Like Ema, I don’t see that putting him in his own apartment was likely to produce any kind of improvement.</p>
<p>I don’t believe that Adam Lanza just got up one day and “out of the blue” did what he did. The question in my mind is was it one “event” that set Adam off, or was it just a slow decline into insanity that resulted in this tragedy? The latter MIGHT have been averted with more sets of eyes on this boy. He and his mother seemed terribly isolated. On the other hand if it was one event (such as his being institutionalized) that was the catalyst, then the involvement of others was not likely likely to have made much of a difference. </p>
<p>I think the one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that guns should never have been a part of this boys life. Peter Lanza does not speak about that issue at all. One does wonder whether he thought it was prudent to allow Adam access to guns. I think there are many things that we will never know about the dynamics of this family. </p>
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<p>If you are referring to NAMI, it is an organization that provides invaluable support to families of mentally ill people using LOCAL volunteers. This means personal help with the local legal system, support groups, you name it. It’s a great organization. Sheesh.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, your kid is not mentally ill and refusing treatment and refusing all human contact, and more. I don’t think you are trapped in the house with a son who will only communicate with you via email, growing more and more isolated and sicker and sicker with no end in sight.</p>
<p>While putting him in his own apartment would be taking a risk, no doubt, it seems like almost the only thing that could be done to break the cycle if nothing else would work. I guess the other alternative would be for Nancy to move out of the house and leave it to Adam.</p>
<p>What would you advise instead, if you were her friend? </p>
<p>There is nothing the local legal system can do about someone who plays violent video game, likes guns, and refuses to talk to his mom. Why is it so hard to accept that Nancy and Peter could not have seen this coming although they knew their son was disturbed? I just don’t believe for one second that any local volunteers or therapists or support groups would have seen it coming, either. Or, done anything to stop it. Unfortunately. </p>
<p>I still just don’t get the apartment thing. If they’d put him in an apartment and he burned the building down or shot his neighbor, everyone would be going on about how the parents abandoned him and should have kept him in the house so they could keep an eye on him. Peter and Nancy getting divorced is Peter abandoning the family, but Nancy setting Adam up in an apartment unsupervised isn’t abandonment? Not enough eyes, but fewer eyes might have been better? Too isolated, but more isolation might have been better? This does not compute.</p>
<p>I agree if he’d done something smaller to attract police attention sooner that might have been better for everybody, but I cannot comprehend that an apartment was the way to do it or that there was any sane thing the parents could have done to facilitate that. </p>