@intparent Her SAT breakdown was CR 680, M 580, W 670. Her grades in math throughout high school have been consistently above 90 though, and she just got a 93 in AP calculus. Standardized tests fluster her, unfortunately. Can you elaborate on what it is about Mt. Holyoke that makes people change their minds? Her best friend is likely to wind up at UMass Amherst, so I wonder if that would help be a selling point to her. We ruled out Wooster after a visit, for various reasons I won’t get into here. And like I said, I don’t know anything about St. Lawrence other than that it must be on the St. Lawrence River?
Sheesh, @IBviolamom, wouldn’t it be nice if admissions saw your kid’s A’s in math (especially calculus) as better predictors of success in college than standardized test math scores?
Mount Holyoke is test optional (so she could skip sending her test scores). Lovely campus, very solid academics, friendly student body. My D2 who applied to Kenyon and Mac also applied there, and D1 who attended Dickinson also got in and sometimes says she wishes she had attended (she did have a great experience at Dickinson, though). In the consortium with 4 other schools, including UMass, so she could take a couple classes at the other schools and socialize there if she wants to.
@yauponredux Yes, it most certainly would! Add to that the excellent recommendation she got from her IB math teacher junior year. I truly, truly hate standardized tests.
In my opinion it is helpful to have more than 1 safety so that there is an affirmative choice to be made in April. It benefits morale to know that there is at least one school that wants you that can’t have you.
I think calling a small liberal arts college where interest hasn’t been shown a safety is kind of hard. Many of these schools because of their size consider greatly level of interest. The solution is to apply to some public liberal arts colleges where the admissions process is predominantly objective. I’m not sure SUNY Geneseo is a safety beyond the Nov 1 deadline. Maybe New Paltz would be.
Out of state consider
Truman State University - a public liberal arts honors college in Missouri (5850 undergrads). It used to have automatic admissions, not sure it still does, but a phone call would let you know.
University of Minnesota-Morris (1896 undergrads)
New College in Florida (835 undergrads)
University of North Carolina Asheville (3663 undergrads)
St Marys in Maryland (that’s the name of the town, it’s a public honors college with 1901 undergrads).
Mt Allison University in Sackville New Brunswick in Canada (2333 undergrads, pretty inexpensive)
I’ve often heard that Miami University - a medium sized primarily undergraduate university in Ohio is sort of comparable to William and Mary though much larger with out 16,000 undergrads.
University of Vermont is really gorgeous and is mostly out of state students.
Look at application deadlines. It may require some hurrying to get the required materials in on time from your HS before winter break. Private schools often have an end December deadline, public U’s often the end of January or so. We finally got our son to apply to our flagship in mid January- thankfully since he only would apply to 2 private schools (and got one app in by the midnight deadline for their, not our, time zone).
Your D may choose to get materials sent from her HS before the break and work on her part of applications during the break. School materials can arrive before the student application is finished.
Include your state flagship in the applications. There will be better students than she is there as many can’t afford other options. There will be many state school applications from top students as they find out their chances with elite schools.
I strongly suspect the admissions folks would be delighted to shift your daughter’s application from RD to ED2. My D got mail encouraging her to consider an ED option after she had submitted her Mac application RD.
Chances are that Muhlenberg will work out for your D. I also do agree that applying to at least one more “likely” (as opposed to safety) would be good for peace of mind and to give your daughter a greater feeling of choice so she doesn’t feel locked in to her “safety.” Of the many schools suggested on this thread, I like the idea of Lawrence in Appleton, WI as a “likely”, in part because of its respected conservatory which might appeal to your musician daughter. There are numerous videos on youtube of its orchestral and choral music performances. And they have this awesome retreat center: http://www.lawrence.edu/s/bjorklunden Your D might also be eligible for merit aid there, assuming the deadline has not already passed.
Someone upstream referred to Lawrence as being in Canton, NY – want to note that there is St Lawrence in Canton and Lawrence in Appleton, WI.
St Lawrence is in Canton, about 2 hours north of Syracuse, and 90 minutes south of Montreal – lovely campus, very outdoorsy, less diverse than some LACs though working on it, about 10% greek life, home of Viggo Mortenson and Kirk Douglas,. Lawrence is in Appleton, WI, has a music Conservatory, is located 2 1/2 hours north of O’Hare. Campus is somewhat like Oberlin, in that part of campus is dissected by town streets, with Con buildings on one side of the street. Lawrence (and Kalamazoo) have trimester system, which I gather OP’s daughter is not a fan of.
I’d second the suggestions of Mt Holyoke and Bryn Mawr as beautiful campuses, similar feel to Vassar, with 5 college consortium for Holyoke and Bi-Co community for Bryn Mawr. Denison has a lot of overlap with Dickinson, is doing a substantial construction/renovation project on music performance/teaching space, and has a lot of music opportunities, including faculty who are professionals in Columbus (30 minutes away).
when do you find out about Dickinson, OP? It should be soon right? If she gets in there, then you have your safety in your back pocket.
Dickinson doesn’t report EA until February, after application deadline for other schools.
If she will consider women’s colleges, I echo the suggestions of adding Mt. Holyoke and Bryn Mawr. It is likely to increase her options. Lawrence is also a great option; there is something to be said for options off the East coast! FWIW, my oldest daughter graduated from Muhlenberg and my younger daughter is attending Mt. Holyoke.
I would caution your D to think carefully about ED2 and not just do it as a quick reaction to an ED rejection. Let her mull over her list for awhile, possibly explore some new options, talk to her gc, before she pulls the switch on ED2
I think that the advice of checking with your school in terms of dates for requesting that they forward anything required from their end is important. Some RD apps are due 1/15 while others are due 1/1. Our school tried to be very accommodating, but with vacations, etc., there are limits to what is possible.
Personally, my advice is yes, add a few schools. In the case of “matches”, especially with the LACs, a lot of it comes down to whether your DD is offering them something that they need, not whether she is “good enough”. The odds that she will be what someone is looking for increase with numbers in that case. And yes, I’d add a “safety” or two. While I’d bet that she will get into Muhlenberg, I think that there is something psychologically beneficial to feeling like you’ve chosen your school rather than been forced into it. It will also leave her a little room to evaluate whether her preferences have shifted, even slightly, during the year and to accommodate that. Note that she will likely have to write supplemental essays to make this happen, so she will have to be committed to the process as well.
You are right that nothing is a given in this process, and a surprising result in the ED round can really throw you for a loop. With that said, unless your daughter had a clear #2, I wouldn’t be automatically be changing one application to ED2.
My last point, since you’re doing some re-thinking – take another look at the CA essay. Is there anything in it you’d like to change before sending out those RD applications? There’s nothing to stop you from doing that, and if in light of that first rejection, you think that it could be tweaked or changed, now is the time to do that.
I’ll second this and give some info re why my D chose St. Olaf and what’s she’s enjoying there. The following were important to my D:
- Wanted to double major in math and a performing arts. Wanted to go to a school where that was common.
- Wanted strong study abroad programs. St. Olaf is very good in this aspect. If your D is interested, then do some searching on St. Olaf's website and look up their interim and semester away courses. This is not the full list but will give you an idea of the options.
- She wanted, it turned out, a little more 'traditional' and structured distribution requirements.
- Wanted many opportunities to participate in performing arts of various types. This part has been great! She's had many opportunities to be involved in music, theater, radio, dance. She is not part of one of the music groups that one auditions for btw, but she's been involved in multiple student and department productions.
The religious affiliation part: My D is not religious however yes at St Olaf she has quite a few more friends who are religious than she would have at other schools. She is sure there are atheists (as she is), but no one else has openly identified that way in her friend group. This is probably the biggest distinction for her, as she came from a part of the country where atheism is extremely common. Part of St Olaf’s mission is to encourage an ‘examination of faith’. From my discussions with many different St Olaf alums (it’s a popular LAC option where I come from), there is no pressure to conclude one thing or another from that examination, but rather it is an environment in which that examination is supported. D says she does experience this: she might hear a group of students discussing their different ‘relationships with God’. St Olaf is not a “Christian college” by the normal definition; it is not part of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities
http://www.cccu.org/members_and_affiliates
Yes, it IS more religious and examination of faith is part of the mission but it is in a different ‘category’ of religiously affiliated. Here some concrete ways you see this
- The school mission is not 'Christ-centered'--like you'd find at a Christian college.
- Rules: The campus is dry. The students are not. Floors are generally single-sex in the dorms (D's not a fan of this). There are no rules about chastity and it is probably as widely practiced as you would expect on a college campus.
- Bible courses required: 1-2. The requirement of Biblical Studies seems to scare off many, however D's course is no different than the 'Western Civ' course that I took in college (secular). We also studied the Old and New Testament (along with many other religious texts). The course that D is taking is scholarship oriented and not 'evangelical' in any way.
- Chapel is available daily at the center of campus. Completely voluntary. Those who want to attend can.
- Professors are not required to be Christian.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ECLA) is one of the more liberal (religiously) mainline Protestant churches. You can see this in the church’s stance on homosexuality. Since 2009, the ECLA allows openly (meaning practicing) gay pastors and higher leaders. D’s friend group includes LGBT men and women. It wouldn’t surprise me if they actually more religious than the average student given the supportive nature of ECLA on that topic. Does that mean St Olaf as supportive and welcoming as say Macalester, in this aspect? I’m guessing that’s unlikely given the different student bodies, rural/suburban versus urban environments, and religiously affiliated versus non-affiliated.
@IBviolamom , I agree that it stinks that there is so much weight on test scores, and it is a bummer that your D just barely misses the cutoff for the Ursinus Gateway scholarship. I still think it is a nice match/safety for your D and worth a look since she likes Muhlenberg so much, and if a good choice financially. A friend’s D attended and loved her time there.
We also know 2 students who are doing well at another CTCL school, McDaniel College in MD, which might also be worth checking out.
Yup, I did too. She also had them early which was a big relief when the more selective school results didn’t come in until March.
Unfortunately, as wonderful as St. Olaf sounds, and my daughter was also quite impressed with it when she spoke to the representative at a CTCL fair, she decided not to apply because of the religion aspect. It’s not a question of not being religious or even being an atheist. We are non-religious Jews in our family, and I’m pretty sure my daughter would consider herself an atheist, we are from New York, and I think being in an environment where it isn’t unusual to hear students to talk about their relationships with God would just make her feel very out of place and uncomfortable.
I wanted to add, make sure she shows interest to Muhlenberg, has an interview, etc. That stuff is important to them.
Also, I think Guilford would be a definite safety for her. Small Quaker LAC in Greensboro, NC. Does not feel Southern because of the strong Quaker values vibe. But NOT a Christian vibe at all at all at all.
@mamag2855 Unless I did the math wrong, OP’s daughter has the stats to qualify for the Gateway scholarship at Ursinus, 1260 CR + M. If that threshold is based on the new SAT and not the old, she would clear the minimum by a wider margin, given the concordance tables.
@liska21 Thank you for that description of St. Olaf! I found it really useful for my own D’s deliberations.
@mamaedefamilia , thanks for the math correction!! I did not have good lighting and thought the math score was 550, @IBviolamom, I don’t know what the financial picture is, but Ursinus is truly a gem, especially great with scholarship opportunities like the Gateway, and I hope you decide to visit. Like Muhlenberg, a visit is important if possible, and they also have interviews, low key, similar to Muhlenberg.