Advantages to attending super-difficult high school?

Parents Forum
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Attending a rigorous HS no doubt helps to develop a background and study skills that are important in college. However, a rigorous HS is by no means a requirement to be successful in college and beyond. You mentioned math. In my basic HS with few challenging courses, there were 3 students who were at least 2 years ahead in math. I’d consider them to be the top 3 math students from my class. All were quite successful in college, such that they were accepted to a grad school that was at least as selective as their undergrad. 2 of the 3 went to HYPSM for grad school, and the third went to the lowest cost top 5 school in his field. Based on the few data points I have, the students in my class who I felt were talented and hard workers did well in college. The straight A students who were hard workers without as much natural talent often struggled. I’d expect this group to have similar trouble at a rigorous HS. However, they still generally achieved their career goals, including graduating from med/law/grad school (often not the one they had hoped for) and had far better than straight C averages at selective undergrad schools. In short, I’d expect most of the students to have similar career results, regardless of which HS they attended.</p>

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<p>There’s a STEM school a short drive from my house (TJHSST) and a perk to going there is that afterschool activities are embedded into the last hour of the day, making clubs/activities a must</p>

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<p>Several folks have noted the burnout kids can feel from highly competitive schools. I have seen that with D (recent grad) who in addition to maintining a decent GPA, was also involved in sports, leadership, and newspaper activities. She spent the last half of high school going through the motions. Once her extended essay was in- forget about any HW or studying! I sat back and allowed this knowing she would not fully self destruct and her batteries now seem recharged. She does have a handful of peers who opted for a Gap year.</p>

<p>Having another student that is struggling with the course work I have sometimes questioned by decision to send my Math and Science kid to an IB school that is heavily weighted to the Arts and Humanities. However, I keep coming back to his peer group is better here than the other options. He is bright and odd and attends a school with other like minded students. And while he just squeaked through AP Lit with a B-, we were so proud of that given his language based LD. </p>

<p>If education and life experience is the sole purpose, and you have a child that will not be crushed by the demands, then the challenges should be accepted.</p>

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<p>Via the totally bizarro NYC high school admissions procedure, my daughter was offered seats at 2 schools: a very small school focused on marine biology and harbor careers, and a gigantic (now 5500 students) test-in high school. I knew she’d be at the top of her class in the small school and she’d have a very interesting application that would make her stand out if she selected the smaller school, but I also knew she’d get a much better education at the larger school, which is where she will be a senior in September. Her grades are so-so–certainly not in the upper reaches of your average CC poster–but I was also told by an admissions officer at the most competitive unit of the State U. of NY that they know about her school and its zillion AP classes and grading rigor and judge transcripts accordingly. And for sure she will be better prepared for college.</p>

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<p>Though the IB school in question is “heavily weighted to Arts and Humanities”, does it still have HL versions of math and science courses? If it does, then the potential issue of “academically starving” a student of his/her favorite subjects would be less of an issue than if the school only offered SL versions.</p>

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<p>I am not sure there’s a high school in Central OH that has a 100 students even apply to Columbia. Our area is waaayyy different than NYC. I think just being in NYC/Jersey/east coast population corridor adversely affects students for geographic diversity reasons, regardless of high school.</p>

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<p>StacJip, I agree with you whole heartedly. IMO, it’s just about impossible to guess which way the “gamble” is going to work if your child goes to a rigorous high school vs your local one. I was in a position where one of my kids did spend two year in such a prep school, getting straight B’s. But he loved the school, learned a whole lot and it was a good fit for him. Sadly, we moved and could not get him into a similar school, and he did not end his high school experience in a school he loved as much. But he did do much better grade wise, and his college choices were far better than his peer that graduated from Rigorous Prep. Had he been able to do a better at that prep school, however, and maybe he would have been able to pull those grades up some more over his freshman/sop years, he might the college outlook might have been better.</p>

<p>I have seen kids get into ivy league schools and highly selective LACs in the second quintile of these prep schools whereas at the above average but not as great public school kids are not usually going to get into any such schools without being one of the top 5 kids in the class. That’s given the same SAT/ACT ranges. So, yes, there is that leeway. But getting those grades are tough.</p>

<p>Also, looking at where the kids matriculate in those top schools gives a deceptive picture in that in many scenarios you are looking at legacy, development, celebrity, connection situations that you may not know exist. So having all of the factors in place to make these decisions is not easy.</p>

<p>We have friends who are keeping their son in a top prep school, though he was accepted to Stuyvesant in NYC. THe young man would do well at either school, I’m sure and his prospects for HPY would be the same, as he is a top student, tests way up there. The parents made the decision that the cost was worth the amenities, support, fellow students he is getting to know.</p>

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<p>I go to one of these competitive STEM magnet schools that have been frequently referenced. The school I go to has one of the top five average SAT scores in the nation and we typically get ~35% of our kids into top 20 schools. The local towns always complain about how we suck tax dollars, so I guess that means we are doing a good job haha.</p>

<p>Going to one of these schools has its advantages and disadvantages, and I think the experience is much different for a student than a parent. As many of you on this forum, my parents wanted me to go this school. I, as a typical motivated eight grader, did not contest. </p>

<p>The process of getting acclimated was extremely stressful and new to say the least. From the very beginning, there were certain kids that had a “leg up”. There were a few home schooled geniuses, math prodigies and kids who had been private tutored for their whole lives. To fail academically was really disheartening, and for the first time in my life I was actually getting subpar grades in my precalculus class freshman year. In retrospect, a few grades meant absolutely nothing, but for a 14 year old who is used to breezing through school they do. However, it did not take a very long time to get accustomed to the school. Once I caught up, I started doing just as well as the others. To realize your intellectual potential is really invaluable and I honestly think that there are very few high schools that can offer the challenge. To this respect, I am grateful for the school because it aided in my personal development. </p>

<p>In some of these school, the hours are modified. In my school, I get up at 6 and get home at 5. During sports season, I get home at 7. The effects of this are very obvious: sleep deprivation. My junior year I took a challenging course load, did really well and averaged a whooping 5 hours of sleep a day during the school week. Some of my more ambitious (a mild term for crazy) averaged 4 hours. </p>

<p>Another disadvantage is the competition. Everyone wants to get ahead, and sometimes the environment can become very hostile. Also, most of these schools have a different social scene. I would say most of the people in the schools are a bit nerdy. Of course, there will always be jocks and popular kids, but the culture is more nerdy than anything. I definitely think I have missed out on a typical high school experience.</p>

<p>A major advantage to these schools is the immense resources available, the quality of the faculty and the quality of the students. Having motivated peers has also helped me to move forward. </p>

<p>I think just because of the rigor of the school, I will be one of the people with a “leg up” in college. I would not worry about college placement at these schools. I think most people would have gotten into the same schools even if they did not attend my magnet school. However, if your child has something that requires a significant time investment (mainly a sport) I would not recommend sending them to one of these schools. I’ve seen many friends that were D1 bound in 8th grade turn into barely-D3 athletes by senior year; the stress and the sleep deprivation take their toll.</p>

<p>Overall, it depends on what your kid wants to do. Tour the school, ask questions and shadow a student before you decide to attend. I personally could not see myself at any other place.</p>

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<p>Personally I think it is a great thing to be ready for college and other academic pursuits, however I wouldn’t go if you want to get into a top college.</p>

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<p>I would have to disagree. All the top (and super-difficult) high schools are feeder schools to top colleges. As an example, this year my school got: 3 Harvard, 6 Yale, 18 Princeton, 10 MIT, 3 Stanford, 5 U Chicago, 10 Columbia, 9 UPenn and 30 Cornell acceptances and not to mention all the other great schools.</p>

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<p>In my case, having attended an academically rigorous HS was not only an excellent preparation for college, it also allowed me admission into colleges my HS GPA should have by rights, kept me out of. </p>

<p>However, within a semester, I learned not all HS GPAs or AP students…including those who scored 5s were created equal. </p>

<p>This fact was not only a great boost for someone formerly nearer to the bottom of his HS graduating class, but also turned out to be a great way to earn extra money to defray what the near-full ride scholarship/FA didn’t cover. </p>

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<p>While I don’t think Columbia accepted 100 people from Stuy, they came pretty close in my graduating class…they accepted around 90. </p>

<p>I don’t think that included numbers accepted to Columbia Engineering, either as back then, it was so much easier for NYC SHS students to get admitted to Columbia Engineering and after a year, do an administrative transfer to Columbia college that Columbia put a stop to that practice. So many classmates used Columbia Engineering as a backdoor to the College that it was an open secret among the SHS students.</p>

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<p>Op,
Sorry I haven’t read thru this entire thread, so I apologize if this is a repeat of what others have said.
My 2 kids went to a school like what you are describing; not a STEM magnet school, but a uber competitive private school that feeds into the ivies. There are definite pros and cons.</p>

<p>Pros:

  1. If your kid is uber intelligent, then this type of school may keep your kid more stimulated and wanting to learn and actually learning than your local public school
  2. Your kid may benefit if the particular school is a feeder school (has historical reasonable acceptances) to certain colleges that your kid may want to attend, as long as your kid’s scores within the range needed
  3. For an non-uber intelligent kid, smaller class sizes allow teachers to pay more attention and note when kids are falling behind, etc.
  4. You kid will learn good habits for studying, perserverance and hard work</p>

<p>Cons:

  1. If your kid is above average, then at this type of school, your kid may be middle of the pack or bottom of the pack. Maybe your kid gets discouraged and gets less interested in learning.
  2. For college admissions, schools not only look at which HS you attend, but your rank within your class. A low rank at a top school is probably worse than a high rank at a lower school
  3. If your kid is not uber intelligent, I guess we always should ask ourselves why we as parents are pushing so hard.</p>

<p>Our uber competitive school was a great choice for DK#1, but is a questionable choice for DK#2, which I struggle with constantly.</p>

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<p>Exile raises a good point about students with specific gifts such as athletes, musicians, etc.
At my son’s school, which was a smaller program and didn’t have the athletic amenities of major comprehensives, the sheer workload made it extremely difficult to balance a highly accomplished athletic pursuit, for example. </p>

<p>While their music program was outstanding (and he is a musician) the academic rigor coupled with the effort he had to expend to keep up made it very difficult to pursue external music opportunities, though he did – and likely at the cost of class rank. In his case, his natively high intelligence was offset by a LD that caused him to be very slow at homework, so he really couldn’t afford to pursue some of his other external interests, such as acting/theatre. But in his unique case, I do not think he would have survived his rigorous college experience had the not had the practice of just mowing through the tough stuff, and he loved every minute of his college experience, where he notably did get involved in many of the things he’d forgone in high school.</p>

<p>Tranquil mind, another thing you may want to watch is your d’s trend…in my son’s case, his upward trend offset a very rocky freshman year, for example, and that ultimately makes a difference to adcoms.</p>

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<p>As a mom who’s D graduated from on of the top NYS public uber-competitive HS I must agree with YoHoHo and Cobrat posts. Also the sleep deprivation and stress level are VERY real. My D had a very respectable GPA, and is currently a raising Sophomor at a Top 20 U, but I an still not 100% convinced this HS was a right choice for her. She says her college workload is actually easier than her HS one used to be, not a level of learning wise, but simply due to the fact that she has 4-5 classes to manage rather then 8-9 in HS. I am not sure I will send my younger D to the same school, unless I see a clear indication that she is a STEM uber-gifted.</p>

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<p>Ooops. Reread my post and the last line should say, “High school is NOT some sort of race.” That is important. The goal should be growth.</p>

<p>Another way to think about it is to think about plants. You can give some fruit trees fertilizer and put things in the soil to encourage growth. You get more growth initially but after 5 years you might get less fruit. Or you can leave the fruit trees alone and focus on protecting the buds from insects that might eat them and pruning the tree to help all it’s branches get the appropriate sunlight. Your tree will be smaller and might not be as prolific a fruit producer initially but after 5 years will be a much fuller tree that is outproducing the fertilized tree by quite a bit.</p>

<p>I have two nephews who both went to Ivy League schools. My son, who has a complex mix of LDs and struggled a lot in HS ended up at a good but not top small liberal arts college. My nephews who both talked about wanting to go to graduate school graduated and decided they needed a break from school. My son who will be senior is spending his second summer doing research in a field he loves, is excited about graduate school. When my son compares the content of his classes with the content of similar classes that his cousin took, he found that there was little difference in the rigor or the material covered. In some cases my son actually got more out of a similar class because his classes were smaller and he had a closer relationship with the professor than his cousin.</p>

<p>I don’t buy that one has to necessarily prepare for college by doing “rigorous HS course work.” Learning should never be so overwhelming that one feels like one is drowning or has to tread water continuously to keep up. If that is happening then I question whether the students are really learning the content or if they are just going through the motions of learning. Learning is a skill that is learned and practiced and the more you do it the easier it gets to handle increasingly difficult material. One thing I hate is when kids get pushed outside their comfort zone. I don’t think learning happens in that place. </p>

<p>I am training right now for a sports event. I am not athletic and I have never been athletic. One thing I find interesting is the importance of not overdoing your training and taking the time to listen to your body. If you have a hard workout one day all the training guides tell you it is important to take time off to let your muscles rest. The brain is a muscle. It needs time to take in material and to incorporate it into the student’s long term memory. Cramming more in does not necessarily result in a better student or future person.</p>

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<p>One of the potential downsides to attending a super-competitive high school could be “class rank” and certain “destination colleges.”</p>

<p>To illustrate, using a totally made-up scenario, imagine the kid who attends that super-competitive magnet school, and places in the 30th percentile amongst their brilliant classmates - now imagine the same kid with who attended their “natural” home school and finished in the top 5%. In a lot of cases, the version of the kid who attended the “lesser” school would gain acceptance to schools that would reject the other version.</p>

<p>Here in VA, you’ll often hear those “lower-tier” TJHSST kids complaining about not getting into state schools like UVA, W&M, etc, because there are simply too many of them to accept them all - UVA, for example, is often described as being the 13th year of high school for TJ students, since so many wind up there. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t want to be (or my kid to be) the “dumbest” kid in the smartest school - in such hyper-competitive environments, the pressure on those kids must be soul-crushing - and you know those same kids would probably be top 10% at their home school. </p>

<p>But schools like TJ have access to academic and other resources that most students can’t even imagine, much less dream of - in fact, many accuse TJ of sucking all of the oxygen out of the room, consuming money, resources, and access to the detriment of other area schools. But that’s a subject for another day.</p>

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<p>“Rigorous HS course work” is usually in comparison with “typical” high school offerings, which are often poor preparation for college level work (as evidenced by the majority of college students needing remedial course work in college). It does not have to be a “drinking water from a fire hose” workload to be good preparation for college level work.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately it is true that kids who are in the bottom half of the TJ class have problems getting into the state schools (UVA, W&M). I would also agree that most of these kids would be in the top 10% of their class at their base high school. </p>

<p>UVA is also called TJ South since so many TJ graduates end up there. If you visited TJ, the infrastructure of the school is in horrible shape (it is currently under renovations). What makes TJ great are the students. They are with kids who enjoy learning.</p>

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I think that most of those kids have the capacity to have been in the top 10% of their base high schools. But would they have been? I’m not so sure. I suspect that in many cases what keeps kids from getting really good grades in magnet schools is not a lack of academic ability or preparedness, but other factors that would have been present in the other school as well.</p>

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<p>I would think they would have been in the top 10% at their base high school and probably not in the bottom half of their base school. You will always have students in the bottom half of a class (MIT, West Point, Harvard etc.). </p>

<p>I’m sure there are other factors including learning to manage their time. I know most TJ grads say TJ was harder than college.</p>