Advantages to attending super-difficult high school?

Parents Forum
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I think it’s probably true they wouldn’t have been in the bottom half at the base school. But even really smart kids can get a lot of Bs, even at the base school, if they don’t turn in work, fail to prepare for tests, turn in papers late, miss a lot of school, etc. I’m just saying that the kids who are in the bottom half in the magnet program–especially at the bottom of the bottom half–are, in my opinion (and based on some observations) likely to have these kinds of problems. They might be able to cruise to the top 30% at the base school even with these problems–but they may not be willing or able to do what it takes to get enough As to be in the top 10% at any school.</p>

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<p>My kids attend a high school with competitive admissions and my observation has been that many students apply to and are qualified to attend the Ivy League and other selective top tier schools, but each of those schools will typically not accept more than 1 (occasionally 2) student from our high school, no matter how qualified the students applying are. It is definitely one of the negative aspects of attending a competitive high school if your child truly wants that Ivy League degree.</p>

<p>On the plus side, those impressive stats and a rigorous course schedule can earn your child a nice merit scholarship at many other excellent schools. My older daughter won a full-ride scholarship to the University of Richmond, a wonderful private liberal arts school, where she is doing wonderfully.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure, either.</p>

<p>As part of fitting in socially at the base high school, some of these kids might have relaxed their academic standards and partied too much. And their grades might have suffered as a result.</p>

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<p>I thought I would share my opinion since I come from a very different background than most of the people who have shared their experiences. I attended a small private school that is not very good academically. Though there are no phenomenal high schools in my area, there are a few private schools in the city next to mine that are a whole lot better than my school. Here’s my appraisal of the pros and cons of attending the less rigorous high school.</p>

<p>Pros:

  1. I was able to participate in a lot of extracurricular activities. I was the president of the NHS, the captain of my school’s math team, science bowl team, and reading competition team, and I participated in six sports. I doubt this would be even allowed at the other private schools, let alone feasible.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Because of all these extracurricular activities, I was able to put my abilities into perspective. While I was decent at some of my sports, I was not as great in other sports. I had many teammates who were noticeably better than me at some or all of the sports we both competed in. Participating in many activities in which I wasn’t the best of the bunch helped me to see myself as just differently abled than others. I feel that some gifted students (both from rigorous and non-rigorous high schools) have this notion that they are simply superior to almost everyone else (I certainly saw my fair share of these kids on college visits). I think everyone will be more happy and more successful if they are able to see that they are good at some things and not so good at others. There isn’t a person in the world who is good at everything. Nobody is better or worse than the rest of us, we all just have different gifts.</p></li>
<li><p>As a result of my participation in all these extracurriculars, I had close personal relationships with a lot of my coaches and advisors. I learned a lot from all of them because they were all different types of people, and I think it helped me grow as a person to have so many people who cared so much about me.</p></li>
<li><p>Since my high school was very small (48 in my graduating class) and academic success was not common, I had quite a few teachers who were very invested in my academic success.</p></li>
<li><p>Since my high school was not very challenging, I was very easily able to get straight A’s and be my class’s valedictorian.</p></li>
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<p>Cons:

  1. I don’t know how familiar the admissions officers were with my high school since students at my high school pretty much never apply to selective colleges, but if they knew much about it, they’d know that A’s don’t mean very much.</p>

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<li><p>I had less knowledge going into college than I would have had I gone to one of the other private schools.</p></li>
<li><p>I had to learn study skills in college since I never studied for tests in high school and rarely did homework at home.</p></li>
<li><p>My guidance counselor was not very good at advising students in their college selection process (Examples: she didn’t know the difference between a merit scholarship and need-merit financial aid, she told us to “just guess” if we didn’t know answers on the PSAT because there is “no penalty for wrong answers”, she recommended the same six colleges for each student (not all six to everyone, but the one or two she recommended to each kid were always pulled off this list of six), and she didn’t know how to manually calculate a GPA)</p></li>
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<p>My Opinion:
With all those pro’s and con’s being stated, I’d still say that a student’s success in college depends a whole lot more on attitude and work ethic than it does on which high school he or she attended. I went into college thinking that the best I’d probably be capable of at my selective college was C’s. I did not receive a C throughout my whole freshman year. I found that I was capable of good grades if I put in the time and effort. I also found that some of the students who went to more rigorous high schools than I did received worse grades than I did because they thought they were so prepared that they didn’t need to study. I will say, though, that the students from the “good” high schools who applied themselves and studied tended to do very well.</p>

<p>All in all, I don’t think it was a bad thing that I attended the high school I did. Though I was often frustrated with the incompetence and lack of ambition displayed by some of the staff and administrators, there were also many valuable aspects to attending that high school. I think that I will be a pretty successful college student because of my work ethic and attitude. Could a more rigorous high school have turned a few of the A-'s and B+'s I received last year in college into A’s? Maybe. But I don’t think that will have a huge impact on my life in the long run. I think my point in all of this is that success in college depends a lot more upon the kid than the high school he or she went to. There will be advantages and drawbacks to any high school, but the most important things are doing the best with what you are given and working hard. Look to see if the high schools you are considering are good fits for your child (in all aspects, not just rigor), but understand that the high school your child attends probably won’t change the course of his or her life.</p>

<p>Final Note:
My account of my experiences is by no means an attempt to prove that rigorous high schools don’t do much for people. I think they are wonderful and help many people. I’m simply trying to say that rigorous high schools may not be right for every gifted student, and that attending one kind of high school vs. another is by no means a “death sentence” for anyone.</p>

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Many admissions reps for highly selective colleges have denied the existence of this type of quota of a particular number of admissions per high school. For example, the Admissions FAQ on Harvard’s website states:

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<p>For the TJ Class of 2013, the breakdown for some of the top schools are: Harvard: 3, MIT: 11, Stanford: 8, Univ. of Chicago: 6, Northwestern: 4, Brown: 7, CMU: 10, Univ. of Penn: 6, Yale: 1, Columbia: 5, Cornell: 19, Duke: 6, Dartmouth: 6, Princeton: 10, US Military Academy: 3, W&M: 65, VaTech: 21, UVA: 88</p>

<p>The numbers are students who will be attending these colleges. Don’t have the numbers of accepted students to each of these colleges but I know of 2 students who turned down Harvard for Stanford and UVA respectively. There has been a trend of students going to schools who will give them lots of merit aid (eg. Alabama) especially for those looking toward med school or grad school.</p>

<p>Are quotas being used at these schools? Would these students have been better off at their base high school?</p>

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<p>My kids go to a pretty competitive school in central California. While it hasn’t always been easy to maintain straight A’s, a lot of people here get admitted to HPYSM and my D (applying in a few months) has stats close to those admitted in the past. </p>

<p>I have friends in other states whose kids go to high schools where only one person gets into Harvard every few years, so I’d argue that there are many advantages to attending a difficult high school.</p>

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<p>I don’t really think it makes a huge difference from a decent public school.</p>

<p>My roommate went to a top prep school in a large city that regularly sends kids to Ivies and got absolutely decimated by freshman year of engineering. I went to a mediocre small-town public high school and pulled a 3.85 in my first year (we’re in the same major).</p>

<p>Obviously there are some public schools (usually inner-city) that are extremely poor and don’t adequately prepare students for college, but once you get past those, I doubt it makes that much of a difference.</p>

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This type of argument (have been several during thread) doesn’t show that going to a particular high school increases a student’s chances of being accepted to a selective college. Most of the top high schools that have been discussed in this thread have a selective admission pool where they only take a small portion of students. For example, a few posts above someone listed seemingly impressive college admission numbers for “TJ” (I’m assuming TJ is Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology). This high school is currently ranked as #4 in the United States by USNWR. Some years it gets ranked #1. It attracts some of the best students in the region to apply, likely some students who find ways to get around the regional requirement as well. They have a highly competitive admissions with an admit rate of only 15%, as low an admit rate as some ivy league colleges. The admissions criteria sounds similar to college admissions – test scores, GPA, teacher recommendations, essays, awards, … The few students who do get accepted to TJ are the ones who are most impressive according to a similar criteria to what colleges use for acceptances. TJ also requires that students maintain a 3.0GPA . If the students can’t/don’t keep up the GPA, they get transferred back to their original school. What you have left are some of the best students among the ~200,000 in the Fairfax County Public School system, the few from those 200,000 who are most likely to get accepted to SHYPM-type colleges, as well as succeed at any high school, college, and beyond.</p>

<p>In contrast, at the majority of basic public schools, you don’t have a competitive admissions requirement. The overwhelming majority of the students are not stellar and would not have been accepted to TJ, had they applied. You also a group that is less likely to be extremely big on attending a selective college. Parents are also less likely to be interested; many did not attend college themselves. Some students that could get accepted to a highly selective school instead choose to stay local or go to a less expensive state school. Of course, the rate of students who apply to and/or attend a highly selective college is going to be tremendously lower than at TJ.</p>

<p>I’d expect whether choosing to transfer to TJ increases a particular student’s chance of getting accepted to particular selective college depends to the student. If he’s the type that will be successful at TJ while still having enough time to be successful outside of the classroom in ECs/awards as well, then it probably will increase his chances. And if he’s the type that struggles and ends up towards the bottom of his class at TJ while having little free time for ECs and other activities out of the classroom, it will probably hurt his chances.</p>

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<p>Just curious…how is TJ for kids gifted in and interested in writing, English, social science - non-STEM subjects? Is it not the place for them? Is there a place for them in that system?</p>

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<p>yeah, TJ is actually pretty good when it comes to social sciences, they have more social science class choices than math class choices and the social science classes fill up faster too. they have teamed courses like IBET in 9th grade (integrated biology, english, and technology, but no world history), Chum/Hum1 in 10th grade (optional teamed chemistry, and english + history) Hum2 in 11th grade (honors english 11 and AP US history) and global studies/language, power, and politics in 12th grade (GS- AP english language, AP US Gov) (LPP- AP english literature, AP US Gov). IBET is mandatory for 9th graders, Chum/Hum1, Hum2, Global studies, and language/power/politics are optional for their grades. all in all, if you/your child plans on taking both AP englishes, and more than 3 social science classes TJ may not be the best choice for him/her. they do not offer AP world history, AP microeconomics, AP macroeconomics, AP human geography, AP art history, or AP music classes. they do offer AP european history as an elective however. If your daughter/son plans on going into psychology/neuroscience, politics, or some sort of social science that includes math/technology/science (like archaeology or finance) then TJ may be their place. TJ’s regularly meeting model un and future business leaders of america clubs attract over 100 members annually. and, you can go to whatever college you want. kids from TJ go on to study all sorts of things that aren’t STEM oriented like sociology or economics. my aunt graduated from TJ in '99 and went to harvard for anthropology before going to harvard med school</p>

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<p>We are not in TJ’s state and my youngest is a junior in HS, I was just curious about how it was for non-STEMs. Thanks for the info!</p>

<p>All the team courses offered there are interesting. At our HS the only one I can think of is IAP - Integrated Analysis and Physics. It’s the “most rigorous” option for juniors (who aren’t off doing Calc by then), the less rigorous option being Analysis and some other science instead.</p>

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<p>^ TJ kids can (some do) take AP Macro and Micro Econ as on-line classes. As for World History, there is not an AP option at TJ, however many students take the AP exam and do very well.</p>

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<p>I have 2 kids, both are equally intelligent. My S just finished his 2nd year at a major music conservatory, my D will be a senior at TJHSST in the fall. My S did not want to apply to TJ, he went to a regular HS in Fairfax County VA. He graduated with 9 AP courses, and turned down Northwestern in favor of CIM. He was offered merit scholarships to every school he applied to. Not going to TJ allowed him to become an extremely good musician, as TJ would not have allowed him the time he needed to properly pursue his music. This was the right choice for him.</p>

<p>His sister is a math/CS nerd, and TJ is a great place for her. She is not at the top of her class, but socially she fits in much better there than she would have at her base HS. She also is a good musician, but not the level of her brother. TJ would not afford her the time, but she’s not interested in music as a career anyway. We have done a few college visits, and they all know about TJ, and are very interested in her. Her counsellor says her musical ability (she was first in state in her instrument last year) and interest in STEM coming from TJ should open many doors for her.</p>

<p>I don’t know if she would have been top 10% at her base school (her brother certainly was though). Her personality is different than most others (except at TJ - lots of kindred spirits there!) and grades are not as important to her. TJ has allowed her to stretch herself though, and she has been able to take courses not offered at the base schools. She has already taken some post AP courses in math and CS, and will be taking more next year.</p>

<p>Having had a kid in both regular HS and TJ, I can tell you that the humanities courses are not as rigorous at TJ. My son took honors and AP level courses in humanities, and my daughter has not learned nearly as much at TJ as my son did, with similar grades. The reverse is true for the STEM classes BTW,.</p>

<p>I don’t believe that going to a well known magnet school really puts kids at a disadvantage when applying to college. I do believe, though, that it’s important for the school to be a good fit. My D has friends at TJ who go into the arts, or who want to study the humanities. TJ definitely does not work as well for them.</p>

<p>The real difference between TJ and the base schools are that everyone at TJ had to work very hard to get there, and they really want to learn and do well. Kids don’t disrupt class, they rarely get into trouble. It’s cool to get good grades. No one wants to fail out or get into trouble as they get sent back to their base school. The kids help each other succeed. I believe the social environment is what makes TJ so successful.</p>

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<p>Totally agree!!! It is the students that make TJ great.</p>

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<p>I think that it depends on the particular magnet school, the elite school in question, and also how good of a student they are capable of being. Even for the same magnet school, Stanford could take a lot of people and Harvard could take nobody–perception matters. A lot of this is in flux and may depend on who the current admissions director is.</p>

<p>I think in general if you are capable of being a star in the classroom at the magnet school, it helps in admission to go to the magnet school. However, once your academic record falls below one or two B’s (and the rest A’s), then it varies highly and usually the super-elite schools won’t take you. However, good schools may still take you. </p>

<p>In the long run, however, I think people are better off with getting a superior high school education in spite of any drawbacks in college admissions.</p>

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<p>I go to a very rigorous, competitive high school and although my grades aren’t what they would be had I gone to a regular high school, I feel like I never would have been interested or prepared for the hard academic colleges that I plan on applying to.</p>

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This was not my observation at my kids’ magnet. While grades were important, the total package was more important–and I think going to the magnet helped many of the kids develop the total package.</p>

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<p>At my own magnet, it depended on the college in terms of whether they were looking at the whole package. For HYP, it was pretty much impossible with more than a “B” or two (and they took very few people in general). Stanford, however, took a boatload of people whose academic records looked much worse.</p>

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<p>As highly selective STEM college admissions enroll more and more students who have all 8 STEM APs, dual college enrollment while in high school and stratospheric test scores (see some of the “admitted” threads on CC), it becomes more difficult to compete for ADMISSIONS if you are a good hardworking bright kid, attending a average or “good” public school. It is more a commentary on the state of public American secondary education than on our bright kids.</p>

<p>Our local “excellent” public school, for example, has a 55% minority drop out rate and has not gotten a student accepted to MIT/Caltech in recent living memory. And very bright science oriented kids go there, and feel hard-working while taking their one senior AP science class. </p>

<p>ONCE ADMITTED, the difference in preparation is stark, and freshman science classes at highly selective colleges are filled with intel finalists, kids with AP everything and 3 years of molecular genetics research prior to setting foot in college. College freshmen aiming for majors in STEM fields who do not have strong preparation wash out quickly. </p>

<p>I think a case can be made that the standard STEM high school curriculum offered to our best students in America (algebra, geometry, trig, pre-calculus and maybe a little calculus, intro bio, chem, physics and one advanced AP class), is utterly inadequate for research university preparation.</p>