Advice for future working mom?

cameliasinensis · May 27, 2008, 11:19am

I really liked the stories and advice in the [stay-at-home</a> mom thread](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/514926-advice-future-stay-home-mom.html"]stay-at-home”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/514926-advice-future-stay-home-mom.html), but I’m interested in hearing from mothers who choose to work full-time.

a) After my sister and I were born, my mother stayed home for six months and my father for the six months after that (this being [url="<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave"]Sweden[/url">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave"]Sweden[/url</a>], they could do so without a significant reduction in income). Both work full-time and have successful careers, but they’ve always made time for family outings and “quality time” on weekends. They split the chores (mom cooks and cleans; dad irons, vacuums, and does the laundry), and in high school, whoever had the more flexible schedule (usually my dad) left work early to drive my sister and me to our after-school activities. For all their disagreements and other problems, they’ve become my reference point for a marriage based on equality.

b) I need intellectual stimulation and meaningful work outside the home. I’ll likely graduate with a degree in government (political science) and would like a job that involves some level of research, writing, and analysis. (I might also consider being a professional photographer, as a photojournalist or otherwise, but that seems like a less reliable source of income.)

c) I didn’t come to Dartmouth to find a husband. I stumbled on a boyfriend who is smart, responsible, caring, and will without a doubt make a wonderful father someday, but after dating just over eight months that’s not the sort of thing we are discussing. Whether it’s this guy or somebody else, these are still questions I will have to answer at some point.

My questions (and these are far from exhaustive, but they’re a few I could think of):

– How do you make this work in a country that, unlike Sweden, has no policies in place to make it easier?

– Is it reasonable to expect complete equality? My mom says American men expect their wives to fill the role of housekeeper, nanny, and cook, and obviously that’s a generalization, but it’s undeniable that old-fashioned gender roles are far more pervasive here (the Democratic primary nonsense provides ample evidence of that).

– “I’m mostly making this thread to get a feel for the overall landscape of the job – are working mothers common these days? Do you know anyone who’s tried it? Is it a good idea? Any experiences, observations, insights are greatly appreciated :)”

Thanks!

(and fizix, if you’re reading, thank you for starting the original thread. :))

islandgirl1960 · May 27, 2008, 11:42am

When I began working as a lawyer, the women who had made it in the profession had to choose between motherhood and career. I felt I was daring and pioneering by trying to do both, but I never felt I could stay on track if I took time off from my job. Other than two maternity leaves (4 mos. for D, 3 mos. for S) I have always worked full time. Nevertheless, I decided to be a different role model for younger women. I was open about taking time off to attend school plays, soccer games, etc. (I used up a lot of precious vacation on those types of things.) I put family first, but I never let that fact stop me from representing my clients diligently. Now that I have been working for over 25 years, working full time actually affords me greater flexibility than if i worked only part time. I see that my part time colleagues can rarely, if ever, change their schedule, because so many things turn on when they are available, but I have the luxury to leave in the middle of the day if I need to to spend time with a child, attend a PT conference, whatever. The next generation of women will undoubtedly do it better, but I am grateful for my career. It has allowed us to be able to afford college tuition, for one thing!

ColoradoMomof2 · May 27, 2008, 11:42am

Good thread. I am an attorney, married to an attorney (met in law school almost 26 years ago). Our children are now young adults. D is 20 and a college junior. S is 18 and will start college in the fall. Save for a 13-month period after our S was born, I have always worked outside the home.

Like you, the intellectual stimulation was very important to me. Those first 6-months were a busy blur with a newborn and a two-year old, but after I got the routine down, the next 7 drove me nuts as I was bored and lonely. I am most certainly NOT putting anyone down who makes the choice to stay at home; it just wasn’t something that made me happy.

To answer your questions:

– How do you make this work in a country that, unlike Sweden, has no policies in place to make it easier? What are the general logistics?

Finding good child care is essential. I went through a number of alternatives before I found the right one for us. I found that I preferred day care centers because of the daily routines established.

Obviously, you have to have a job that pays enough so that you aren’t paying your day care provider for the privilege of working!! It has to be a money making proposition for your family.

– Is it reasonable to expect complete equality? My mom says American men expect their wives to fill the role of housekeeper, nanny, and cook, and obviously that’s a generalization, but it’s undeniable that old-fashioned gender roles are far more pervasive here (the Democratic primary nonsense provides ample evidence of that).

You may not like my answer, but NO, at least for me, it was not reasonable to expect complete equality. My H was a partner in an insurance defense law firm and he worked incredibly long hours for far better pay than I received when I worked as a Deputy District Attorney. After I took the 13-months off, I started working for a nationally known legal publishing company at a decent pay rate and with great family benefits. I made the conscious decision to go down this route because it was VERY difficult to make a family and marriage work with two practicing attorneys. My hours were much more “normal” and I still had the opportunity to be a very involved mother to my children, which is what I wanted. I probably did (and still do) about 70% of all housework, but I’m a bit of a control freak there anyway, so I don’t mind.

Your mileage may vary on this. It depends on your partner and a whole bunch of variables, including the type of people you are, your values, your careers, etc.

– "I’m mostly making this thread to get a feel for the overall landscape of the job – are working mothers common these days? Do you know anyone who’s tried it? Is it a good idea? Any experiences, observations, insights are greatly appreciated "

Working mothers are VERY common these days. I know of very few families where they can make ends meet without two incomes. And that’s to provide necessities, not any luxuries.

I didn’t want to live an existence where we were scratching out a living. I wanted to be able to go on family vacations, pay for my kids’ sports activities, and not put all the pressure on my husband. I wanted to contribute to our family financially, and it was the right decision for us.

DougBetsy · May 27, 2008, 12:07pm

OK. I’ll take a shot at this. I’m a mom who has been employed full time outside the home since before the kids were born. (except maternity leave) For the record, I believe that having a stay-at-home-parent is the right, proper, correct, and noble way to raise the children. It just never worked for my husband and me.

– How do you make this work in a country that, unlike Sweden, has no policies in place to make it easier?

You just do what you gotta do. Be picky about child care. Conserve time off from work so it youl’ll be available when the kids get sick, have recital, team tryouts, etc. Work from home occassionally.

– Is it reasonable to expect complete equality? My mom says American men expect their wives to fill the role of housekeeper, nanny, and cook, and obviously that’s a generalization, but it’s undeniable that old-fashioned gender roles are far more pervasive here (the Democratic primary nonsense provides ample evidence of that).

Well, one person’s “equality” doesn’t always match the other person’s vision for equality. “Balance” is probably a fairer word. And, it’s my observation that balance is easier to find when both parents work, than when only one does.

I believe that when both parents work, they understand each other’s responsiblities better and are more willing to share the chores. I’ll probably get flamed for this, but it’s my observation that in the couples where the wife stays home, your mom’s generalization has an element of truth. And, that’s not necessarily a bad thing because (obviously) it works for that family.

– I’m mostly making this thread to get a feel for the overall landscape of the job, are working mothers common these days? Do you know anyone who’s tried it? Is it a good idea? Any experiences, observations, insights are greatly appreciated –

I’m not sure which is more common: SAHMs or WOHMs. A quick google might be able to tell you.

Whether or not it’s a good idea completely depends on the family. For us, I’ve known all along that I couldn’t live happily if I am utterly and completely dependent on my H. (goes back to some isses with my own parents’ divorce) Therefore, I earn a paycheck.

SAHM v. WOHM debates are very very sensitive. There are strong opinions on both sides. Sadly, each side also harbors some resentment toward the other. It’s called the “Mommy Wars.” And THAT type of equality (mom to mom) is the hardest part of the job…not husband to wife equality.

Columbia_Student · May 27, 2008, 12:19pm

I came from a family that women always work outside the home until retirement and still have lots of children(13 for one aunt). So there is not a question of whether I work or not. I did take one year off for child #1 but I’m luckier than most people is that I’ve always found jobs that are flexible, let me work from home whenever I want. I also picked a very supporting husband that is very similar to your father. I read that children with involved fathers tend to do well in life.
I also employed full time nanny, part-time driver to pickup my kids after school. I also have people that comes weekly to clean my house when my kids were much younger. My excuse is that my free time outside of work is to focus on my kids and not doing housework. I also picked jobs that I rarely have to travel and make sure that is well understood up front by my boss. It has worked out for me.

fendrock · May 27, 2008, 12:28pm

I’ll post to both threads because I have worked full time with two children as well as been a SAHM.

Many factors go into making the decision to work or stay at home.

Is your job flexible? Is your husband’s? If both have high pressure, inflexible jobs, you will need lots of outside help with your children and household. (Simply consider the math. If you commute 1 hour, work 10 hours, commute home one hour, you already have a nanny working time and a half. This doesn’t even take into consideration if you need to travel at a moment’s notice.)

How do you feel about finding and retaining a person who will need to cover all these hours?

So, obviously, many factors will contribute to the ease with which you can balance family and work, including your temperament, where you live, your profession, and your spouse.

I will PM you with an essay I wrote on this subject.

marite · May 27, 2008, 12:34pm

I’ve always worked since I received my graduate degree. H and I have also always shared household chores.
I knew I wasn’t cut out to be a stay-at-home mom. I had a job when my first child was born. I took off two two months. I did the same with child #2. We used full-time daycare since the children were young. We are lucky that there are several excellent though expensive day care centers and home care centers in the area. We selected one that was close to where my H was working and were extremely happy with it. We considered hiring an individual to care for our children but decided that day care centers were more dependably open than an individual who might get sick.
When my Ss went to school, they were used to be on a full-time schedule and enjoyed being in after-school programs. This continued until they reached the age where they could be at home on their own and also outgrew the afterschool activities.
I have to say that things were made easier because our kids were never sick and only necessitated one of us getting out of work for dental visits or medical check-ups. We could schedule those when it was most convenient for one of us. I don’t know if we could have both worked full time if we had had a child with significant needs. We also refrained from taking many trips and made sure that our travel did not overlap, though on a few occasions, the whole family came when I had to travel to interesting locations on business.

Youdon_tsay · May 27, 2008, 12:41pm

Don’t have a lot of time to fully answer either thread, though both apply.

When I was working, the most important thing to me was having high-quality care so that I didn’t worry about the kids (too much) while I was at work. The first caregiver we had was not a good fit, but we felt desperate and went with what we could find. I was out of there in a few short months and spent a weekend of researching and calling and pleading to get the perfect at-home day care. She was the most wonderful person ever. It takes such a load off.

Also, look for a supportive work environment that will let you have flex hours, if needed, telecommute, etc.

My dh thinks he did as much around the house as I did, but he’s deluding himself. But he did a lot, so just find a good man. :)

TheAnalyst · May 27, 2008, 1:01pm

I worked full time until a few months ago when I retired (kids are 20 and 17). My mother always worked, as did her mother (my grandmother), so I did not feel like a pioneer and took working for granted as a duty. I did not enjoy my job, but I happened to out earn my attorney husband by a substantial margin, so felt continuing was an obligation until the children were grown and their futures secure. I finally decided we were close enough, although my kids are definitely not happy with my decision to leave my job, seeming to think it is somehow unnatural for me not to work. They will just have to get over it.

My career involved a lot of travel and for a little more than a decade a commute into NYC from the suburbs, so it wasn’t possible to run home for an hour or two for anything. I did take a medical leave of absence for a year when our then 3-year old had a stuttering problem. The reaction from the then 6 year old was outrage, “You’re my mommy not my nanny; you can’t stay home.”

I guess I wouldn’t have made a good stay at home mom, so working was the right decision for me and my kids. However, finding a career I enjoy has been and continues to be a challenge. I am currently in the camp of working being highly overrated.

jonri · May 27, 2008, 1:31pm

I’ll give you my D’s advice–which may sound odd because she isn’t married and hasn’t had children. However, since she is a bit older than you are and working is essential to you and to her, maybe her way of approaching this will help. Indeed, I think it may even help the other poster who wants to be a SAHM.

I know I’ll get a lot of flack for this, but…after some trial and error, my D only dated guys whose moms worked while they were growing up and who do not resent that. She also listened to what guys said about young female relatives, especially older sisters, who were working moms.

In high school, she had a brief romance with a guy whose mom was a doctor with several kids. She’s always worked full time. His dad has a demanding job too. If mom missed the basketball playoffs because she had to meet a patient in an emergency room, he understood that. And that young man and his siblings all pitched in and did things like laundry. So, while it was just a youthful romance which was never all that serious, when they did talk about their plans, he always took my D’s plans as seriously as his own. She thought this was typical.

Off to college…she met a guy who has a SAHM. Every time he had some minor problem he called his SAHM (who only lived a hour or so away) and asked her to solve it. She would. I don’t mean she did any sort of academic stuff, but if he called and said I want to play intramural tennis and my racquet is at home, she’d popped in the car and drive it to him. He seemed to think his mom’s role in life was to be the family “go for.” That made my D a bit uncomfortable. When his older sister, who was a medical resident, had a baby, he was VERY vocal and criticized her for returning to work too soon. Slowly, it dawned on my D that no matter what he said, he didn’t take her future plans as seriously as his own. If they married and she got a great job in city X and he got a great job in city Y, he assumed that they would move to city Y. And, thus, it ended–before it was all that serious.

But what she carried away from her two romances was that her BFs’ upbringings had a lot to do with their attitudes. Rightly or wrongly, she concluded that a guy raised in a traditional family with a SAHM was more likely to feel when push came to shove that his wife’s career plans were less important than his own. If his mom had been happy and fullfilled as a SAHM who had always said that it was important to be at home, at least when the kids were young, well, her son was likely to feel that when HIS kids were young, his wife should be at home.

Her high school bf didn’t feel that way because he’d grown up in an environment in which his mother’s career was taken as seriously as his dad’s and he’d never had a SAHM. He took it for granted that any young woman he would be interested in romantically would also have her own career ambitions.

So, after that, she said no to any guy with a SAHM who asked her out. I know some SAHMs on this forum will sputter at that–but that was her solution. Her current (serious) BF had a SAHM when he was quite young, but his mom’s contribution to a family business was vital even when she was “at home.” She went back to school when he was still fairly young and now has a more demanding job than his dad. So, dad does more than his “fair share” of household tasks because he has more time to do them.

Now time will tell if all of this will work out. It’s never easy to balance two demanding careers. However, I know that the two of them think that they can do it .

So, I offer my D’s plan to young women on both sides of the fence. She thinks the best way to get the kind of H you want is to date a guy who grew up with a high powered career mom or at least a working mom whose husband helped with chores. If you date a guy who grew up with a happy and fullfilled SAHM who stressed the idea that it was important to be at home with your children when they are young, my D thinks the odds are high that–no matter what he says–that’s what he will want you to do.

I’m sure there are exceptions, but I think my D has a point. Anyway, I offer her plan for your consideration.

SlitheyTove · May 27, 2008, 1:38pm

How my family has made it work (as always, other families may find that what works for one doesn’t work for all):

*As others have said, child care you are happy about. For us, that ended up being a nanny who also did housekeeping. We would come home to happy children and a tidy house. If you can find such a paragon, your ship has come in.

*Outsourcing some household tasks. That might be housecleaning, meal prep (e.g. takeout), yard work, what have you. If something is driving you crazy because you and your spouse just can’t find the time to get it done, hiring someone to do it may be cheaper than a divorce This is something that depends on your personal tastes and your budget. Or, ratchet down your expectations.

*A flexible schedule for at least one parent. Being able to get home on the early side (4:30 or 5) to accomodate getting dinner ready, helping with homework, having some early evening decompress time, being able to drive kids to early evening activities has been important for us.

*Dialing down the career goals so that each parent works a 50 hour week rather than a 60+. There have been times for each of us that our work commitments go up, but we have made that the exception, not the rule. Alternatively, push on the career, but make the ONLY things in your life your career and your kids. I do have colleagues who have successfully managed this; I’m too lazy, and don’t want to give up other things in my life.

*Being able to work from home at least part of the time. We no longer have someone at home 5 days a week, so if a plumber or repairperson is coming, we need to be there–that’s not a problem if your employer will allow you to telecommute. Ditto doctor appointments and school conferences.

*Establish a work history BEFORE you have kids so that your employer will allow you to work from home, have flextime, etc etc because you have done such a good job before. And work in a field or for an employer where you know that parents have successfully been able to manage both work and family.

*Living near your work (as in, five minutes to get home) is very helpful if you can swing it. Having your kids attend school near work is also helpful. We have failed on both of these. On the other hand, my one-way commute of 30 minutes is nowhere near as bad as some.

huguenot · May 27, 2008, 1:43pm

Well, Jonri, here’s one SAHM that agrees with you. I think regardless of what you are looking for in a mate, you should take a squinty-eyed good look at their family - the family, like it or not, is a big piece of who they are.

Also, cameliasinensis, although a SAHM, my interests are very similar to yours. I fulfill them through freelance writing, blogging, non-profit governance, and political activity.

ColoradoMomof2 · May 27, 2008, 2:01pm

Jonri, here’s a working mother that agrees with you as well. Your D’s considerations and observations are VERY valid ones!!

I would think long and hard before ever getting into a long-term relationship, especially marriage, with someone who didn’t value my career - male OR female - even if we agreed eventually that one of us would be a stay-at-home parent. If they don’t value my passion or interests, what else are they not going to value about me?

ADad · May 27, 2008, 2:06pm

Well, I had a very traditional SAHM and I have been a SAHD for over 17 years. It is my wife who has a demanding professional career.

Therefore, I don’t think things are as simple as suggested by jonri’s D. I think one ought to do the hard work of evaluating a potential mate as an individual.

fendrock · May 27, 2008, 2:19pm

I agree with ADad.

For starters, if one person makes $100+/annually and the other makes $40K, it is more practical to take the $100K job “more seriously.”

It’s also hard to predict how you will react to having a baby. Some people return to work without a hiccup, others find they want to stay home, despite all their earlier plans to the contrary.

SlitheyTove makes good points. This is especially important:

mathmom · May 27, 2008, 3:43pm

While I understand where Jonri’s D is coming from, not every son of a stay at home Mom produces sexist men. But I do agree making sure you agree on your values before you get married is critical. One thing I think young women need to realize, is that many of us spent more years as SAHMs than we expected, because it’s not easy to find good jobs that work with having children and kids change the way you look at things. I definitely had the job that could be turned down to a simmer - it would have been much harder for my husband. Flextime and/or part time work, and having a job that you can do at home have all been part of the equation for me. No question the fact that dh and I have never had more than a 15 min. commute since having kids is a big help.

sueinphilly · May 27, 2008, 4:09pm

I’d like to mention that if you are a federal employee, you get good benefits, flexible scheduling, alternative work schedule (4 10 hour days), family leave, carry forward sick leave and maybe even telework.

When I got the call that my son had chicken pox, I picked up my keys, told my boss I’d call her in a week and left (this was before teleworking).

Uncle Sam is a family friendly employer (and we love college graduates, can’t get in the door w/o a degree anymore)

jonri · May 27, 2008, 4:44pm

Re: #16. I don’t think my D assumes that every guy who thinks someone should stay at home with children when they are young IS a sexist. She just thinks that if she married a guy who had a SAHM who was happy as a SAHM, it’s very likely that he will think that his W should stay home when they do have kids. I think she thinks that doing so is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice–it just doesn’t happen to be one she can ever see herself making. So, thank you very much, but she’d rather not put herself in that position.

And, I think she recognizes some facts about herself–which may not be true of our young Swedish poster. She has more than a bit of what some might call sexism lurking in her core inner being. While I know she would be perfectly happy being married to someone who made less money than she does, she would not be happy married to someone less driven than herself. There is NO way on the face of the earth that she would ever marry a guy who said upfront he’d be perfectly happy being a stay at home dad. I am NOT saying that’s a “bad” choice–just that it’s one that she would feel uncomfortable with PERSONALLY.

Now, obviously, life throws some curve balls, and it might well be that if she marries and has children there might be circumstances in which it made sense for her H to be a stay at home dad for a while. Nobody can predict life. However, there is NO way she would get involved with anyone who didn’t start out with the idea that they could have kids while they both pursue demanding careers. Yes, they may be unrealistic, but she wants someone who starts out with the idea that it’s possible. She also wants someone who doesn’t assume that if and when someone has to scale down the career a notch, the W is automatically the one who will do so. And, she starts from the position that the career pot put on simmer for a while if necessary–whether it’s H’s or hers–will be turned back up to full boil ASAP.

So, maybe what I should have said in answer to the OP, is that the first step to making it work as a working mom is finding a H for whom having a W who works outside the home even when the kids are small is something he automatically sees as what he would choose if at all possible.

paying3tuitions · May 27, 2008, 4:47pm

For me, the hardest thing about maintaining a career while raising 3 kids was having to move frequently due to the very nature of spouse’s job. Complete moves of city, house, schools, new doctors for 5 people in a new city each time…just too many moves. However, his work is on flextime so he could slip out to see the children’s recitals at ll a.m. midweek, if he chose to. And he has been very available, emotionally and in terms of time, as he could be. He’s really “in the moment” with them and is a hands-on raiser of the kids when he is home. Also, they could come with him to work (clergy) so that’s kind of unusual; weird, but at least we were together although we were essentially watching him work while trying to pray. Weird, but that was their normal, so we just embraced it.

The other hard thing was being without any relatives in each city, so every single minute of child-care was paid for. Never a sister or grandma to drop off for a free minute. One year I had 14 teen afterschool babysitters, one after the other (they think working 3 weeks is a huge amount of time). They’d recognize me in the grocery store but I forgot who they were or their name. Now, that’s sad. Every minute of free time felt like the taxi meter was running and costing us.

I hired babysitters to keep working, at some level, every single year for 15 years until the youngest could be left alone or in the care of his older brother or sister. I just made sure to teach one course or work (for pay) at something, anything professional in my field, not for money but for resume continuity. I never completely parted from the workplace. At one point, I was 8 months pregnant and teaching a college level course inside a maximum security prison. I like to tell my eldest he spent nights in prison even before he was born, so deal with it.

BUT, I feel I’ve done a beautiful job raising the kids in partnership with my spouse. His career is a triumph; mine is kind of “meh” as they say. We cared all along more about our kids than things, and that kept the costs down to where I didn’t have to work very much.

The year I went back to retrain for a masters degree in teaching, we moved in a fulltime nanny who cost more than the graduate school tuition. Other than that, we just have one part-time teen babysitter after another, forever it seems, so I could teach an afternoon or evening course somewhere.

By the time the youngest was 9, I was working full-time finally again.

And yet…it all worked out great.

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