<p>probably won’t end up applying to all, though…</p>
<p>I want to limit it to about 6.</p>
<p>@ agb44: Your point is well taken if you were looking at an outcome where the opportunity is universal (or unrestricted). If we were comparing, for instance, the number of National Merit Semifinalists…then Andover, with more students, should have more semifinalists to reflect its larger proportions.</p>
<p>The situation that bearcats refers to, however, reflects the finite number of admission opportunities at these top-rated schools. Think of each school as a gallon-sized jug. Now take each high school and think of it as, say, a can of soda. The admission offices have to fill up that gallon jug, skimming from the top of many of these soda cans (dang…I should have done a milk/cream analogy…but bear with me…) Because they can’t overfill their gallon jugs they can’t draw from every school. And because they want to create their own unique product, the can’t just take lots of students from a few schools. Not when they can draw from the top of thousands of soda cans. Too much from one school…when compared to the limited space they have available creates their own problems of proportion. </p>
<p>In other words, while it generally makes sense to compare the proportions of Middlesex and Andover in terms of various indicators of academic performance…you’ve ignored the relative percentages of those students at the schools they matriculate to (the gallon jugs) and the constraints that are imposed on that end of the equation.</p>
<p>The top 10% of Middlesex students, being 1/3 the number of the top 10% of Andover students, take up a smaller percentage of the matriculating students at each Ivy League school. Those numbers are apparently acceptable. But as the raw numbers of students from any one school increase, there’s an increasing force that’s exerted – by the constraints of that jug – that makes it increasingly difficult to find room for the next student without skewing the composition of the incoming class. There is no such constraint on other measures of academic performance (such as the National Merit Scholarships awarded) which is why so many people think the equation is as simple as adjusting for the size of each school.</p>
<p>i understand your logic bearcats, as far as diversity goes. but think of it this way. MX is going to have 22 ivy/stanford/mit worthy students, whereas andover will have 69. now if all 69 applied to 8 ivys, and they all deserved to get in, then yes, for diversity reasons, probably only 10 would get in, but per SCHOOL. so 10/69 at cornell, 10/69 harvard, 10/69 yale, etc. some would get rejected at some schools for diversity issues, but if they applied to all of the schools mentioned, they couldnt get rejected for diversity issues at EVERY school becuse andover doesnt have enough every league caliber students to put 10 at every ivy/stanford/mit. </p>
<p>MX on the other hand as i said will have 22 worthy students. if they all apply to those 10 colleges, there will be much fewer rejected for diversity issues, but less students in all so they cant go to as many colleges. </p>
<p>in the end, it works out to andovers favor, because they will have more students at more ivys, because they have more applicants at each ivy. each ivy will limit the amount of andover students they accept for diversity issues, but there are enough ivys that all ivy level andover students can go without there being too many at any one school. </p>
<p>and wen i say ivy in this post im refering to the 8 ivys + stanford + mit.</p>
<p>but u gotta realize most kids cram for HYP and wharton …so there are over allocation at some and underallocation at some, and they end up getting rejected. all 69 kids might apply to wharton and maybe 5 apply to cornell…then it screw things up. That’s why college counsellors constantly try to split the people “unintentionally” but it doesnt always work. (and applying to all ivies is just stupid. the ivies are so different that i cant see any person can fit in all 8)</p>
<p>and i think dyer said it much clearer than i did…</p>
<p>well yes, all 69 would not apply to every ivy, but that helps spread the applicants thinner over the amount of ivy’s. each has his/her own preference, some schools may be more heavily applied to than others, but the principle remains that andover has the capacity to be able to send 5 of its students to every ivy/stanford/MIT with some left over. MX cannot do this. more students is both an advantage and disadvantage. </p>
<p>dyer’s logic works for one school, but he/she isnt taking into account the spread across 10. there is going to be some uneven distribution, so it doesnt work out perfectly, but the principle remains.</p>
<p>agb44----you need to understand that it’s not like those 69 andover students are all equal. yes…they’re all absolutely fantastic and would be a shoo-in if they went to public school. but there are differences among them…and the ivy’s can see that (once they utilize their stats microscope)…it’s more likely that the top 20 of the 69 get the 80 acceptances (which averages to 4 each) than all 69 getting 80 total (one each and then some).</p>
<p>“but the principle remains that andover has the capacity to be able to send 5 of its students to every ivy/stanford/MIT”</p>
<p>but u r using percentages, 5 students gives andover a lesser percentage when MX is sending 2 becoz andover is 3 times bigger…but u gotta realize that the ivies are probably way more reluctant to take 5 students than 2 students from one school</p>
<p>Let’s be honest about who get’s in. Legacies, athletes and URMs first. Some kids in my class are legacies at 3 or 4 top 10 schools.</p>
<p>First off, let me say before getting myself further into this, that I think the matriculation comparisons – in which we look at raw numbers and nothing else – is an exercise in futility if the purpose is to determine the merits of one top tier BS versus another.</p>
<p>People forget in these debates that it’s not Andover or Middlesex students earning spots as it is a college, with limited spaces, awarding them. And each college/university makes its decisions independently…so the dynamic I described above comes into play, just many times over.</p>
<p>How fast we forget the lessons of March 10! Lots of excellent candidates get turned away. As impressive as Andover’s numbers may be, I bet nearly all of its slots for Harvard or Yale (or other top colleges) are spoken for the day the students set foot on BS campus for their orientation. Lots of legacies; some PGs; throw in the URMs that SPSstudent refers to. And the question you have to ask, are these schools better than each other at getting their students in to the Ivies? Or are they merely better at attracting people destined for them? (Or a bit of both?)</p>
<p>As convoluted as I articulated it above, my point is simple: the matriculation numbers and distribution of students by school are dictated principally by the size of the entering classes of each college and not the size of the high schools from which the new students graduated. Generally speaking, the smaller the college, the less proportionate the matriculation numbers will be when comparing a large top tier BS to a small top tier BS.</p>
<p>The matriculation numbers game is silly…as a comparative exercise. We have to assume all Ivy admits are the same (and based on academic merit). And while I do believe there’s an algorithm that describes whether the numbers for Andover are impressive relative to those for Middlesex, I don’t believe it’s expressed strictly in terms of the proportions of each school’s student population.</p>
<p>What I want to know is whether a school creates opportunities. Lots of Ivy admits suggests that’s the case. But I really can’t tell whether that’s because of anything the school itself has done until I look at other data…which brings me back to those PSAT/NMSQTs and SAT scores and then, digging deeper, looking at what the non-Ivy admits are doing. Where are they going? Are they getting in to their first choice schools?</p>
<p>I know that a good track record getting students into the Ivies is important. But it’s simply a threshold consideration, like the SSAT scores, before we explore the real substantive issues that separate and distinguish these schools from each other. As long as you’re getting a boatload of kids into the best colleges and universities, that’s good enough. Whether, after making required mathematical adjustments, Middlesex got in more or less than its fair share relative to Andover…that’s just a level of detail that’s not worth fighting over.</p>
<p>The bottom line for me is this: Both schools get a boatload of students into the best colleges and universities. That’s all I need to know about the Ivy admit numbers for me to continue looking at these schools. The more important issue is whether they offer a learning and living environment that my particular child can thrive and excel in. After all, if you can prove by twenty bishops that one of these schools has an appreciably higher rate of Ivy admits (after adjusting for size or not), does that fact even matter if that school is a place where my child is going to crash and burn? </p>
<p>Speaking as a parent, I’m not in this to watch other kids go to the schools they want to go to. I’m in this to help my child have many excellent opportunities at his BS and beyond. And I’ll never figure that out if I try to parse out the Ivy admit figures to 4 decimal places instead of focusing on the things that will make a genuine difference in my particular child’s BS experience.</p>
<p>blairt agb44----you need to understand that it’s not like those 69 andover students are all equal. yes…they’re all absolutely fantastic and would be a shoo-in if they went to public school. </p>
<p>Blair, your comment above shows you haven’t learned enough from the prep admissions you just went through. No one is a shoe in for an ivy matric(whether applying from ind. or public school.) Not only are they not a shoe in for ivy… they wouldn’t be a shoe in at any tier 1 school such as North Western, Tufts, Amherst, UVA, etc. etc. I only chose those few to go accross the board with public, small, and large. College matrics make about as much sense as prep school admits. There are no shoe ins… you need to go back and remember how you felt just prior to getting your Exeter admit where you were complaining on this board about prep school admissions being all about the money and the lack thereof being the reason for your “rejection.” I’m not trying to be mean, but again the advice you receive on this board isn’t necessarily fact based. One of the biggest advantages I felt my kids had going to independent schools was the excellent college guidance they received vs. friends’ kids who went to public schools. </p>
<p>Bear was an excellent example of a student who was deferred to his ED school where he was at least a single legacy, coming from an almost top tier boarding school… jk bear… i’ll grant H almost equal status to Choate and Taft in ct… LOL It’s just a hard thing to predict. I think it’s great that Blair goes into the prep school knowing that it doesn’t guarantee an ivy spot and in fact believing that it cust down her chances. My suggestion is to enjoy the school for what you came for. Listen to the experts they employ on college advice and don’t try and compare one to the other based on Ivy matrics. Figure out where you will flourish and enjoy your next 4 or 3 or 2 years!</p>
<p>SPSstudent imo is correct. Hooks, Hooks, and more Hooks get you into the ivies. If you can play squash at a high level, Harvard is going to scoop you up. If I were in prep school, I would concentrate on squash, crew, or LAX. I would find one maybe two EC’s that I’m dedicated to for the duration of my HS years. If my grades are descent ( B average ), my chances of getting into an ivy are probably 60%. That beats 12%. If you have the above and add URM, WOW you may be set. Few students get into the ivies on academics merit alone. You need Hooks!</p>
<p>I was obviously being sarcastic when I said the top 69 at Andover would be a shoe-in at another school. As I was also obviously sarcastic when I said the top 69 Andover seniors are all automatically “absolutely fantastic.” </p>
<p>Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember ever complaining about being wronged in admissions. I noted that ChaosTheory was wronged, and how he, as an unhooked appicant who is studying BC Calc at 14, was downright rejected from Exeter, which was such a perfect match for him. I also asked if getting my grandfather to do a few things would change my prospects, and many said yes, but as I said before, I just couldn’t consciously do that. But I never, ever even mentioned that I wasn’t accepted to a smaller school because I requested FA. I feel that it is a shady practice, but it is necessary to sustain a private school, and I couldn’t do anything differently if I were an adcom who had the school’s best interest in mind. If anything prevented me from gaining admissions to a school less competitive than Exeter, I feel it was because they had few spots for 11th grade applicants that weren’t automatically filled by recruited athletes. If anything, that would explain the acceptance at Exeter vs. the rejection at Taft. If anything. But I stopped dwelling on that as soon as I got a huge red package and a personalized admissions letter from Exeter.</p>
<p>Sorry I started this thread and made it a fiasco…I just wanted to know about these schools, not about how many of the students get to go to the top colleges…</p>
<p>janemac, no need to be sorry, it’s OK for people to disagree. Matrics get a lot of attention on CC. For the most part, this site has become more about collecting trophies as opposed to getting a stellar education. Consequently, ivy matrics become important as it is part of the trophy. </p>
<p>Janemac, I hope you will have a chance to visit Middlesex and explore what the school is all about. In a nut shell, Middlesex is a very nice school where one can acquire a superior education regardless of where you end up attending college. I wish you good luck in your search. If you have specific questions regarding Middlesex, please PM me if you like. I’m not a student of MX but I currently have a daughter who is a Junior at MX.</p>
<p>touchdown, my info came from a book I read. Off the top of my head I do not remember which book it was but, I will find it for you.</p>
<p>Blair,</p>
<p>If I misunderstood your post, then I wholeheartedly apoplogize. I didn’t note any sarcasm in it. Suffice it to say then, that we agree on the point which is that top college Matrics are as unpredictable as independent school admissions. As for your bemoaning your rejections, I went back and read some of the posts that I was referring to, and I still detect a note of bitterness in them. But hey, who whouldn’t be bitter with your stats and being rejected. The posts I was referring to were written to Antonucci (sp) where you said something to the effect of the reason for rejection being FA and at others because of sportsmanship etc. etc. Probably more likely is the determination that in such a tight pool of competition for a junior spot, you weren’t the best fit. That is not a reflection of you or the school… just a product of too many super-qualified candidates for not enough spots. </p>
<p>Allow me to elaborate… Let’s pretend we’re an adcom at Choate or H or Taft or any other school which flashed D’yer’s No Vacancey sign. Here we see an applicant that is basically a few credits away if not already having completed her high school education… and then we see anothe student with the same or close aptitude who just completed her sophomore year and is proceeding at a nice pace but not super accelerated like Blairt. We can only take 1 of these kids from Cal as we only have 5 total spots for incoming juniors… perhaps I say… well Blairt doesn’t really need a whole lot more of hs so… I’ll give this one spot to soandso who also happens to be from Cali. I’m not saying that’s what happened… but … it’s as plausible as any explanation. To use another of D’yer’s tricks… it’s like me when I pull out my checkbook each month to make my charitable donations… I have an idea in mind of how much I would like to give… I have the few that I know I always give to in my case, my Synagogue, Federation… then I go down the list of charities that I would “like” to give money too. ALl of them are worthy and could really benefit from my support… the problem is my checkbook only has x amount of $ in it.</p>
<p>College admissions are similar if not worse in many ways. Interviews don’t play nearly as important a role in many College admissions so it becomes more of an uphill battle to present what an outstanding candidate you are. The high school you go to helps package the applicant but in the end, the results are as wholly unpredictable as Independent school admissions.</p>
<p>My real point of that post was that Jane should heed the advice of many, and try to find a school that “fits” her and her objectives. Think about how you are going to spend the next x number of years and figure out if you are going to learn well in that environment, flourish socially, fit in with the persona of the campus etc. etc. Don’t go to a school figuring this is my ticket to the next round of the fight. Because here’s another of my big theories for what they’re worth… Ivy matrics on the undergrad level don’t mean a whole lot in many professions. It might help in that first job interview… but after that… show me where you went to Grad school and how have you done in your career so far. Too much emphasis is placed on the wrong areas (perceived prestige) on this board and perhaps in the culutre of the current HS generation… I don’t know about that.</p>
<p>GL Blair and again I apologize for the misunderstanding… I wish you the best of Luck at Exeter next year of Andover if that ultimately works out.</p>
<p>Good points… but the thing was, my acacemic acceleration wasn’t noted…if they looked at my transcript, although I had all A’s, I was sort of behind because I had to do all of my freshman and sophomore requirements for this district in one semester (last semester)… so what they saw was a freshman schedule. Highest level of math on my transcript was ALgebra 1!! That’s all they saw (even though I will be prepared, if not already partially finished, with calculus next September). The classes were easy for me, but I couldn’t take one honors or AP course… so my transcript was very… pathetic. It was obvious that I made the most of it, and showed great potential (A’s at college as well, 98% SSAT, great recs/writing on essays), but christ, I was asking for a challenge – my school is not enough, in any way… i noted this in a metaphorical essay of mine…I compared myself to a plant that couldn’t grow anymore because i was stuck in a small pot, so i needed more soil and open space and nutrients…and in my interviews, it was clear i wanted a challenge, not to go to an ivy league school. so, i showed great potential, academic aptitude, and i sucked my school’s soil dry, and was only asking to plant myself somewhere with more. so, this is what confuses me. i demonstrated both sides of the coin… i accomplished as much as i could here (and was stuck, in many ways), but wanted more… and showed the ability to not only do so, but to flourish and bring a very unique and unusual background. it doesn’t matter anymore, but it still confuses me very much, because exeter–the most academically demanding school w/ the most qualified teenagers from around the world as applicants–accepted me. but taft didn’t. but again, i really don’t care at all anymore, but i would like to understand the differences…</p>
<p>I definitely will, prepparent. I don’t care about college right now and what school I can go to in order to get into the most prestigious college. I want a HIGHSCHOOL and COLLEGE that will fit me. & For now, I’m not worried about how many Harvard graduates are from Middlesex as opposed to Andover. That’s probably the least of my worries. So thank you, prepparent, I will PM you once more questions arise.</p>
<p>Blair,</p>
<p>I think it’s impossible to understand. I wrote a recommendation for a family friend who had 99% combined, 4.0, John Hopkins CTY, President of the student body at his pre-prep, active in theater productions, played hockey and soccer, won academic awards, was personable and interviewed well, etc. He applied for 9th at Taft and was rejected. Who knows? Any school that accepts below 30% of their applicants are going to reject many qualified students. The recent Taft alumni bulletin had articles on a junior who is going to be competing for Korea in dressage in the next Olympics and another who had a solo gallery show of her photography of portraits of Dalits (commonly known as the “untouchables” in India), taken when she worked with a British documentary crew over the summer. Even schools that many on this board consider “lesser” are packed with truly exceptional students.</p>