<p>i'm speechless about Affirmtive action </p>
<p>it's ruining the future of our children, if you are asian or white</p>
<p>if not, lucky you</p>
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<blockquote> <p>it's ruining the future of our children, if you are asian or white>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>Not mine. And we appreciate his being able to mix with students of different backgrounds-- that includes athletes in my household, the biggest beneficiaries of preferential admissions.</p>
<p>not ours either
I made the decision when I had children to move to the city instead of remaining in the suburbs where I was raised because I wanted a more diverse atmosphere ( also the neighborhoods were more friendly where people could walk)
Both my girls have attended high school in the heart of the city- one of them at an inner city public school- I love the school and I love the kids.
Our district no longer can legally bus for racial diversity- but when we look at colleges- the diversity of the student body will be one thing that we look at.
It adds immeasurably to life in this country- and I applaud any attempt to even the playing field- even going so far to giving children of illegal immigrants instate tuition at universities.</p>
<p>Almost all academic administrators, even the most conservative Republicans, practice Affirmative Action in one form or another, and their motive is not always leveling the playing field or creating a diverse student body. For example in medical school members of some urm groups perform as well as asians and caucasians with higher MCATs. So, the dean of admissions will seem to be lowering the bar for some groups when he or she is really acting in the school's and society's best interest by creating a student body that is more motivated.</p>
<p>My problem with discussions of "affirmative action" is that they always involve the fallacy of equivocation, because people are by no means agreed in what they mean when they use the term "affirmative action." On my part, I simply don't worry about it. My children can get into college by working hard to be prepared for college, and there is more than one college in this country that can provide them a worthwhile education.</p>
<p>"even going so far to giving children of illegal immigrants instate tuition at universities"</p>
<p>If you are an illegal immigrant your not only have no right to instate tuition, but also no right to live in the state. In theory, for every illegal attending a state college, there is a legal denied admission. Look up the definition of illegal. They should all be rounded up and sent packing.</p>
<p>What are immigration laws for? The only exception to this would be a child that was actually born in this country.</p>
<p>Undocumented workers still often pay taxes- since they do pay tax- shouldn't they reap the benefits?
We are a nation of immigrants- when did we forget it?
[quote]
Like so many immigrants before them who have now become citizens and have been folded into the fabric of U.S. society, today's immigrant children come to the United States with their families for many reasons: to escape political persecution or economic hardship, to seek education and work opportunities, or to be with family members who are already established here.</p>
<p>At this moment in history, the number of families who would like to immigrate to the United States greatly exceeds the number that the U.S. government is willing to accept. This is ironic, because U.S. economic and military policies often create the conditions whereby people need to flee their own countries for greater safety or economic security here. For example, U.S. military policies in Southeast Asia led to large waves of immigration from that region, while NAFTA has led to dramatic decreases in the price of corn in Mexico, making it more difficult for poor farmers to hold onto their land. ....
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<p>Let's just open our borders and let anyone in with no documentation. Let's not have any immigration laws at all. I am really tired of the bleeding heart liberals and the way this country is being gradually ruined.</p>
<p>I have nothing against any nationality, but let's be real. We are a nation of LEGAL Immigrants. Enough said.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>but not responsible for their stupid choice (ex: having sex w/ condoms and having children at the age of 13 and never do their homework though they have light, pens and books and even time)>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>I doubt very much that these are the folks applying to college. Did you read the thread about the illegal immigrants who beat MIT students in the national ROV competition? They're not applying to college and taking spots away from Asians or whites. They're working as laborers. Meanwhile, the US is trying to lure well-educated Asians to come here to fill up the ever decreasing ranks of math/science specialists.</p>
<p>"it's against my beloved MERIT PRINCIPLE, although i'm a democrat, i still hope Aff.Act. gets doomed."</p>
<p>Well, your rampant stereotyping shows the pressures that URMs can grow up in. They often have the lowest expectations and fewest role models, and it can really affect their performance.</p>
<p>Plus, they have Merit in life experiences. A world full of 1600s and suburban america is stagnant and unrepresentative of true society. At times, URMs can teach your more than any teacher is able to. While they have may lower test scores (however they don't always), it doesn't really mean they're stupid.</p>
<p>Illegal immigrants pay taxes on the jobs they take fron Americans and depress wages and benefits for Americans with the poorest Americans being the most affected.</p>
<p>There are two real problems with affirmative action. The first is that way more people feel like they were denied a place at school than actually were. To illustrate let's say for arguements sake that at a fairly selective college you are down to filling the last slot. You have, because you have run through the best candidates an ever increasing pool of essentially indistinguisable applicants for the last slot. There are 25 or 50 or 100 all with essentially the same grades, test scores, reccomendations etc but all you have left is one spot. If the spot goes to a URM then each of the 25 or 50 or 100 applicants believes in his heart that had he only been born with a different shade of skin he would have gotten in. Fact is admissions would have tossed a coin but for affirmative action. Only one applicant was actually hurt but all of them felt the pain and the rest of us feel the social and political. ramifications of the pain.</p>
<p>The second problem with affirmative action is the all minority graduates wind up tainted in the public eye. Regardless of whether they were admitted on the basis of their accomplishments or their color the degree they earn always has an *. That may not be true or fair but it is what happens.</p>
<p>"I have nothing against any nationality, but let's be real. We are a nation of LEGAL Immigrants. "</p>
<p>Really? Think the original inhabitants feel that way?</p>
<p>"and I dont wanna be responsible for CERTAIN STUPID MINORITY's CHOICE."</p>
<p>There you are, ladies and gentlemen.......the biggest arguements FOR affirmative action.......racism and continued blatant discrimination....ignorance.....lack of tolerance for diversity. </p>
<p>ThomYorke - affirmative action is America's gift to people like you. YOU are the biggest beneficiary because you and your children are lifted from your own ignorance once you get to spend time with URMs who prove that your stereotypes are innacurate.</p>
<p>The problem is that affirmative action only serves to enforce those stereotypes since it assumes that URM's are poor, come from disadvantaged backgrounds, have one parent in jail, and have sub-par test scores. And then people like ThomYorke see URM's struggle in college (which they feel they shouldn't be at in the first place) and it only strengths the stereotype of the underachieving URM.</p>
<p>AA helps URMs that are of that background. Wealthy URMs with college educated parents in professional fields are held to the same standards as everyone else. </p>
<p>Norcalguy - you are making an assumption that all URMs are "struggling" in college. What evidence do you have to support that?</p>
<p>Anyone ever notice that if you give a black man a job over a white man it is by default "Affirmative Action/racism"? But if you give a white man a job over a black man, it's qualification.</p>
<p>Think about it though. Ever hear someone complain when the white person gets the job? I mean, have any white people/Asian people ever thought, "Man, I just took a black person's spot." I doubt it. But a black gets into college and [aforementioned whites/Asians] don't, and that damn black took their spot!</p>
<p>Put yourselves in someone else's shoes for a second, ladies and gentlemen.</p>
<p>Which begs the question, why use race at all? Why not have affirmative action based on socioeconomic status? Why do we continue to assume diversity on the basis of race? In a sense, we are saying that people of the same race are alike and are different from people of other races (which is exactly what outdated bull***** like orientalism presumes). Why can't we get a feel for diversity based on an applicant's essays, recommendations, EC's, and interviews? Not all blacks are going to act "black" just as not all Asians play the piano and are captains of the Quiz Bowl team. </p>
<p>momsdreams: The graduation rates of URM's at various colleges indicate that they struggle more in college. This is especially pronounced at state colleges and large instituations.</p>
<p>UCLAri: Your point is precisely the fallacy of affirmative action. Many URM's ARE very deserving of their jobs and college admissions but because affirmative action exists, other people are going to think that their achievements are tainted. This is why some URM's refuse to declare their race on their applications and refuse to support affirmative action. They believe it sets low standards for their own race and only invites second guessing.</p>
<p>Because, for one, society still treats poor blacks much differently than they treat poor whites.</p>
<p>Many people like to believe in the norm of equality, but the reality deviates from the norm enough to warrant attention.</p>
<p>I am not necessarily arguing for the status quo in admissions (I have issues with it), but I'm saying that removing ethnicity and ethnic background is naive.</p>
<p>"Your point is precisely the fallacy of affirmative action. Many URM's ARE very deserving of their jobs and college admissions but because affirmative action exists, other people are going to think that their achievements are tainted. This is why some URM's refuse to declare their race on their applications and refuse to support affirmative action. They believe it sets low standards for their own race and only invites second guessing."</p>
<p>So what is the alternative? Just not even give blacks/Latinos a foot in the door?</p>
<p>The problem is this: If we had an equitable system, then blacks would be represented in universities in the same numbers as they represent in the population at large.</p>
<p>The only other alternative is that they are inherently inferior in some way. There is no alternative. You can't say that the society is equitable and underrerpresenting its minority populations in universities.</p>