<p>I completely understand the resentment when it comes to highly selective colleges. Such resentment and bitterness have been internalised by two entire generations of ORMs from my state. :-)</p>
<p>In my state, the selectivity for top colleges in non-AA category is sheer madness. The first 3 tiers are like 1-3%, 5-7% and 10-15% respectively. There are no 4th to 9th tier colleges. Straight down to 10th tier like in the snakes and ladders game. Since admissions are entirely numbers driven - school and entrance test marks - a couple of percentage points can knock you down by a tier, and the worst is getting knocked off the third tier, especially holding something like a 90% aggregate !</p>
<p>The funny thing is that the competition is pretty hot in the AA side also. Stats are only slightly lower than non-AA for the most part. Of the 69%, 20% are further reserved for the most economically and socially backward groups, which is where one might see significantly lower stats. </p>
<p>And we too have the affluent URM children benefitting from this programme. Two reasons. 1. Parents belong to middle castes that were historically landed gentry and traders. 2. Parents were beneficiaries of AA themselves, and subsequently became economically affluent.</p>
<p>But whether in India or here, I think that these affluent URMs are a minority within the larger URM pool. When implementing AA over 2-3 generations this is bound to happen. I dont know if the entire system needs to be redesigned because of these few people.</p>
<p>Finally, can I say something about the Powell example ? Surely, in known circles the son would face no problems. But what about when he is incognito, walking around someplace like any black person ? In India, it is the opposite. No problems until you become too known in certain circles What I am trying to say is that, in a society that harbours any prejudice based on color, culture, ethnicity etc., is it wrong to ascribe an automatic social disadvantage factor to children belonging to such communities, irrespective of economics ? </p>
<p>Disclaimer: I am considered ORM in both my homes - in India and in the US !</p>
<p>Of course, there are discrimination issues and name calling still these days for African Americans. I mention this in my Post #46, I believe. But so it is for many of us for many different reasons. Asians are disiliked in certain venues, handicapped kids (I was just so horrified at the story of a young mentally challenged girl abused at an Ohio high school), heavy people, midgets… you name it. But that does not give these kids a special category for admissions at elite university. In fact, the mentally challenged absolutely need not apply when they are probably the most abused, molested and taunted group of people in our society. </p>
<p>The benefits of the diversity achieved are believed to offset the inequities in the process. This holds not just for URM admission but for admissions at elite colleges for all kinds of kids-the development kids, celebrity kids, the legacies, the females at tech schools, the males at predominately female schools, the athletes, the musicians, the special talent kids who may not have the grades or test scores to have been considered, the disadvantaged. The list goes on and is dynamic, changing with the needs and wants and direction of the university. And that is what you subscribe to when you apply to these schools.</p>
<p>Irrespective of current economic status, I accutely understand the historical baggage that plays out in the creation of self-esteem. Especially when combined with still existing prejudices in the larger society. I am speaking purely from the Indian experience.</p>
<p>Until recent past, some people were considered to be of lesser academic intelligence, of lesser political and diplomatic acumen and of lesser ability to take care of sophisticated and complex organisations and institutions. It will take generations for them to reclaim the level confidence that exists among the more previliged groups. </p>
<p>And as you or someone else said before, creating role models within certain communities is very important, and it does make sense to me to keep giving that fillip to a few more generation of people, irrespective of the education and money of the parents.</p>
<p>This can’t be said enough, in my opinion. It’s not a just some pity program for the downtrodden. It’s a recruitment program to make the student body better, in the judgment of the college/university, than it would be otherwise. </p>
<p>Think about a nursing school which favors male applicants. They don’t do this because men have bad SATs or grades, or because they are discriminated in society. They get the leg up because the school believes that having more men in the classroom and the profession is beneficial to the education of all nursing students and to the field.</p>
<p>I don’t like to go on these AA threads because they often get very nasty. I do understand why, and it appears that most of the parents here understand what the problem is whether they agree with the resolution that elite colleges have decided to take.</p>
<p>Sugee, I am glad to hear that other countries are seeing the importance of representation and diversity among their various factions. I was not aware that AA was at work in India. It was a piece of information I do appreciate. </p>
<p>I know it has been a difficult go for your family, and the admissions timing with the green card was unfortunate for your son, as applying as an international student is very difficult, particularly from over represented countries. I want to let you know that I have a deep respect for the graciousness you have shown in a process that is flawed and often unfair to the child, which hurts the most as a parent. I am just hopeful in posts like this that people understand the issues involved in the policies that have evolved and are still evolving.</p>
<p>Anyone wishing to make an informed comment on AA should first read The Shape of the River. It is a wonderful indepth analysis of AA in the eilte colleges and punches gaping holes in the conventional wisdom of those opposed to AA.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that most people arguing against AA policies do not have the same strong feelings about advantages given to athletes, legacies and progeny of the rich and famous. George Bush and Bill Bradley were not admitted to Yale and Princeton based on their academic merits.</p>
<p>I think people often assume that everyone who is against AA must be bitter due to their own college rejections. Have you considered that some people who are anti-AA are actually looking out for the best interests of URMs? This would explain why some URMs oppose AA themselves.</p>
<p>1) Some of you believe that AA would increase the number of role models in the URM communities. No offense but America has its values severely misplaced. We don’t look to academics as role models. Even in white communities, role models are not Nobel Prize winners or philanthropists, they’re athletes and movie stars. What Ben Stiller or Lebron James does will resonate much more than allowing some 1300 SAT student into Harvard.</p>
<p>2) URM’s represent such a small fraction of each school’s population I don’t see how anyone can blame URM’s for not getting into college. This means that relatively few URM’s are even helped by the AA process. But the message it sends out is pervasive. It tells other URM’s that they are not as smart as other races (yes, I realize a complete applicant profile includes essays, interviews, EC’s, etc. but students often equate intelligence to GPA and test scores) and only through a preferential system can they become a better applicant than a White or Asian person. Oh wait, AA is supposed to increase self-confidence, right?</p>
<p>3) On the issue of diversity, do you guys follow what happens to URMs in college? I attend Cornell, a relatively diverse school (in fact, diversity is one of the biggest reasons why I chose it over Cal). But since coming over I’ve realized that for the most part, people of the same race have formed cliques. It’s not so apparent with Asians and whites as there seems to be substantial mixing (especially interracial dating) going on but very evident with African Americans (I simply don’t see enough Latinos/Native Americans to make a judgement on them). Just because you allow minorities into a school doesn’t mean that the same segregationist patterns that plague outside society won’t form inside the school as well.</p>
<p>Cornell: Wonderful idea of having “themed” program houses (residence halls) based on race as a way to encourage diversity.</p>
<p>4) As I have said, fix this problem from the bottom. Fix the elementary schools. Fix the middle schools. I went to a school that was (and is) 80%+ black. Consequently, most of my friends were black. Wonderful kids, no behavioral problems…just did not want to do HW. And the school didn’t do a damn thing about it. On the other hand, I, as the lone Asian kid, was termed “gifted” by the school and allowed to take sixth grade math as a third grader and the school specially ordered advanced workbooks for me to do. African American kids, seeing the special treatment given to the Asian kid in a school that was predominantly black, would be utterly devastated. If you want to improve self-confidence, improve it when they’re young.</p>
<p>Simply put, if I was an URM, I would be able to get into just about any college in the country.</p>
<p>But, I’m not. I’m white. And thanks to affirmative action, it’s not likely I will be able to get into most of the elite institutions here in America.</p>
<p>I’m not racist (which is apparently the automatic assumption when a white person announces they are against affirmative action…). I just believe that if I worked harder than someone, I deserve a seat at a college more than they do.</p>
<p>unluckycharms-how do you know URM’s don’t work as hard as you? SAT scores are not an indication of how hard someone worked. I took a whopping 4 practice tests for the SAT’s (no studying whatsoever) and scored a 1550. Does that mean I worked extremely hard?</p>
<p>“And thanks to affirmative action, it’s not likely I will be able to get into most of the elite institutions here in America.”</p>
<p>Sorry, Unlucky - you’re right that it’s not likely that you will be able to get into most of the elite institutions in America, but affirmative action has nothing to do with it. The number of URM’s admitted into top schools is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of non-URM’s who are convinced that they should be “able to get into just about any college in the country”. An ability to recognize that basic statistical fact is a reasoning skill that is valuable - and you don’t seem to have that. And your attitude - a sense of entitlement coupled with a chip on your shoulder - will probably come through in your applications, giving selective colleges a reason to pass on you and pick any one of the dozens of other equally qualified applicants instead.</p>
<p>The bitterness usually hits a climax when an incident occurs as I related in an earlier post where it appears as though a student at a given school was not accepted to a selective school when a URM is. This is always a bad situation, URM issues aside. It is just more of a personal slap in the face when you know the person who got into a school where your kid was declined, and you have a good idea what the resume of that person is. It is difficult to take comfort in the fact that there are probably hundreds of other kids accepted for whatever reason that are would get the same reaction from you if you happened to know about them. The “devil” you know will torment you more than the devil you don’t know.</p>
<p>Unlucky “work harder” I am a URM (Mexican) and i have had to work my butt off. Your “white” and probably a bunch of help from your parents. Miniorities usually have to work harder during school just to stay in school. I was in ESL for a couple years. I did field work and had to go to school. Yes i did get accepted to some elite US schools, and i think affirmitive action helped. Being mexican and having a spanish speaking household made my SAT verbal be low (590). I am first generation to graduate from HS and go to college. I used to be a migrant worker also. You had it made and if you don’t get into those schools its your fault not because of us (URM). Lots more white folks get in than we do.</p>
<p>Oneunknown, the problem that we are focusing upon does have anything to do with"disadvantaged" URMs. I don’t know anyone who feels someone who has had a whole different back ground and faced adversity should not get some latitude. The discussion are URMs who are often not first generation, whose parents are professionals, have had every advantage including test prep, private schools, tutoring, knowlegeable parental support who still get preferential admissions the way it work at the current time. Everyone supports helping the disadvantaged, but they are way under represented in the elite colleges. Most of the URMs accepted by the top schools have the same advantages as non URMs and yet there is a gap in their test scores and gpas.</p>
<p>I also hate how people assume history just based on current status.</p>
<p>Oneunknown-you come from a Spanish speaking family and got a 590 on the SAT verbal section. I come from a Chinese speaking family. Even today my mom speaks marginal English and my dad speaks ok English. I was not born here either and had to take ESL classes for a couple of years. I got a 790 on the SAT verbal section. Does that mean I did not face the same adversities that you did?</p>
<p>When my parents came over here, they were so poor, they had to borrow money just for the plane tickets. Within 5 years, my dad earned a phD in math and a masters in computer science while having severe language difficulties and supporting a family on $9600 a year. Today, he earns in the six figures and we were able to buy a $500,000 house without a mortgage. Does that mean he didn’t have to face adversity?</p>
<p>It absolutely makes my blood boil when people say that Asians don’t deserve affirmative action and then use current statistics about how Asian median family income is so high. The success of Asians in this country is precisely the reason why discimination against Asians (the fact that immigration acts banned all immigration and they were denied any kind of citizenship in the US) is always secondary to discrimination against other groups. It wasn’t until I took an Asian American studies/history class this year that I learned about the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Gentlemen’s Agreement and the denial of citizenship to Asian people.</p>
<p>Marite: you are the role model for many young women! Very correct that minorities should provide that role for each other. In some ways, it is good that black women earn more than white women with a college degree - perhaps they can start pulling their kids up the ladder.</p>
<p>I read a very interesting study. 8th grade students took tests to place into high school math courses. Black children were almost always placed in remedial classes - even when getting <strong>every single one</strong>* of the test questions correct. White students with about 75% correct were placed in honours.</p>
<p>My town had minority students - who were bussed in from the city. They spent about 3 hours a day on that bus, going to and from school. Most of the kids like that, although better off at the excellent suburban schools, are disadvantaged - doing ECs was tough, and a lot of their day was spent travelling (compare with kids in my town who were 5 min max from the schools). </p>
<p>Racism (and sexism) are alive and well. I’m tired of being told that women just aren’t as good in math… and the exact same tools which are used to arrive at that conclusion can be used to arrive at the conclusion that minorities are not as bright. Sick and it still exists. Forget 40 years ago. </p>
<p>IMO, the passage of laws does not negate centuries of discrimination. It is still alive and well - driving while black, wage discrepancies, promotion discrepancies, etc - just more insidious than it was a generation or so ago.</p>
<p>I always think it odd that folks believe AA at expensive private colleges exists for the benefit of those minorities gaining admission. I’ve never seen any evidence for this view. However, I see lots of evidence, from the statements of college presidents on down, that minority enrollments benefit “overall campus diversity” Since minorities by themselves are, by definition, not diverse, that means rich (usually white) folks, many of whom are there by virtue of affirmative action for wealthy (usually white) families to begin with.</p>
<p>All this means, of course, is that certain subsets of Asian Americans (and by no means all - try finding Hmong, Mien, upland Laotians, etc. on prestigious college campuses) aren’t offered AA status because it is unnecessary to do so to provide diversity for the rich (usually white) folks - they are found on these campuses, in large enough numbers (in the view of the colleges), anyway. </p>
<p>Norcalguy, if you believe AA (at private institutions) is directed at the undeserving, I suggest you change your target – AA folks didn’t “take your place”, wealthy (mostly white) folks did.</p>
<p>norcalguy i can see where your coming from. (I got a 1240 and got into stanford i just read your post above) My mom was 14 when she got pregnant and didn’t even finish middle school. My father was in the equivalent of HS when he had to drop out. It is tough for OUR families. The community in which i live in is 70%+ hispanic. Norcalguy but i bet your parents encouraged you go to got school and were perhaps able to help you on your homework. Most of my friends recieved no motivation throughout HS. And that other question about wether my son’s or w/e should recieve URM status is maybe what if the person i marry is white…j/k. Probably not though cause by the time i’m that old there hispanics are probably gonna be the majority. Now i’m going to sincerely answer your question. I don’t think its fair that Profession’s s/d get preference over admissions. I will not be biased and start talking about historical things that happened. Back at your question, do you know of any other way to get URMs into elite schools?</p>
<p>oneunknown-the problems that you describe aren’t exclusive to URMs though. The way you are putting it, all URMs have broken families who don’t value education. That simply isn’t true…and there are plenty of non-URM families who share the same problems. You’re right, the reason why many asians students excel in spite of poverty is becuase of the heavy emphasis on education. But is there anything wrong with that? That is why ANY student excel in school, becuase of family motivation and emphasis in education. Yes, there is another way to get URMs into elite schools–familes need to place more emphasis on education! And it is proven because URM families that Do this tend to have kids who excel in school! It really isn’t society’s fault that crappy things happen to people’s lives…it’s tough luck and isn’t exclusive to URMs. Many whites and asians face the same problems, maybe even worse problems. I am asian and believe me, plenty of crappy things happened to my parents. They had to live through the Cultural Revolution in Communist China for god sakes, and if you know about it, then you should know the extent of repression they had to go through.</p>
<p>Now, if you were able to mature and excel in spite of all the harships you described, you truly are an amazing person and really do deserve to go to a top school or anywhere else for that matter. But that does not mean that every other URM applicant deserves these opportunities more than non-URM applicants.</p>
What I am trying to say is that, in a society that harbours any prejudice based on color, culture, ethnicity etc., is it wrong to ascribe an automatic social disadvantage factor to children belonging to such communities, irrespective of economics ? </p>