<p>Except that these are private institutions so we don’t get to vote as though they were a government entity. And since they are private institutions they have to make money. And since they have to make money they have to and are allowed to run their organizations as they see fit. And round we go again.</p>
<p>Actually they are non-profits and we tell private institutions what they can and cannot do all the time. My liberal friends on this board will be happy to explain to you that so long as a school takes a penny of federal or state money or admits a kid recieving federal or state aid in the form of grants or loans we can regulate them all we want.</p>
<p>All we want? Generally those who hate AA also hate regulation. Glad to see you think outside the box.</p>
<p>I find it fascinating in all the mutations of this anti-AA debate people have no qualms about blaming hispanics and blacks, but no one has the guts to go after the LARGEST BENEFITER OF AA: women.</p>
<p>Why don’t they blame women, eh? As I see it we undeserving URMs take up FAR more space than our ethnic counterparts:)</p>
<p>“if A needs rehabilitation because he suffered mental and/or physical trauma at the hands of B what right do you or I have to tell C he has to pay for A’s rehab or even that you and I and C are going to jointly pay for it.”</p>
<p>All of us - Cs, Ds and Fs - are already paying for such rehabilitaion, Patuxent - our tax money, remember ? :-)</p>
<p>OK, if 100 of 1100 places at Princeton goes based on AA, that is a problem, right ? What if Princeton ADDs 300 spots for AA while keeping the 1100 spots open to everyone ? Acceptable ?</p>
<p>You would still be treating people differently solely based on the color of their skin. No matter how you try to paint it some things are wrong. If URMs want their own water fountain and seats on the bus we can go back to 1954. Separate is inherently unequal and unequal is unAmerican.</p>
<p>ok</p>
<p>here’s something i’m pretty sure about</p>
<p>I can at least pull out more than a dozen URMs in Harvard NOW, and their application stats could be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than some ORMs who got rejected/waitlisted. and IT IS UNFAIR to the individuals who got rejected, it hurts them…</p>
<p>I learned English in 2.5 YEARS and got a 620 on SAT verbal, higher than most hispanics’s in my school. my parents dont speak ENglish much at all. u think Asians are just genetically good at languages? NO! we ahve to work HARD just like ANYBODy else.</p>
<p>I’m also against that social-economic status thing. just b/c ur family is RICH, u can’t go to the best colleges? and the POOR can get in top colleges much more easily? what’s THAT? THAT’s communism. OUCH!</p>
<p>Modern American culture strives to eliminate racism. That is the underpinning of AA. </p>
<p>As an immigrant, Thom, do you think it is possible you misunderstand and distrust fundamental aspects of American culture? </p>
<p>Also, do you think it is possible you have misundertood American admissions? Have you applied Asian educational standards? If you have, you would be disappointed. H doesn’t just want hardworking students. They want broadminded students, students who are striving to eliminate racism. </p>
<p>Why do they want those students? Are they idiots? Or, is it possible that their system, the American system of admission, works very very well for H–and the whole of American society?</p>
<p>I hope when you get to UVA and UMich, your outlook is broadened. You’re awfully bitter (and confused) for a young man with big American opportunities at his feet. A correct understanding of American society and it’s (possible) benefits will be important for your post graduate career and your life in America.</p>
<p>ThomYorke just did not read the posts on the Harvard board carefully enough. He would have noted that plenty of higher scoring applicants got rejected while lower scoring caucasians were admitted. We just do not know enough what about the rest of their profiles got some rejected and some accepted. There’s far more to composing a student community than just selecting on the basis of grades. To ascribe the rejection of high scoring students of whatever ethnicity to AA is ludicrous. </p>
<p>I am not bleeding on behalf of someone who got into UVA and UMich with a 620 on his SAT-V.</p>
<p>Here is a recent report on by the Chronicles of Higher Education in which college want to have even more diversity= more affirmative action. Even worse, it seems that college are considering watering down their curriculums to keep more minority applicants. This is exactly what some folks didn’t want to hear:
Washington</p>
<p>As more than a dozen college presidents gathered here on Tuesday to discuss how to make their institutions more racially and ethnically diverse, they quickly seemed to reach consensus on two points: Their institutions still had plenty of work to do, and making some major changes in undergraduate education might be a good start. </p>
<p>The colleges that the presidents represent all belong to the Leadership Alliance, a coalition of 29 higher-education institutions established in 1992 to bring more minority students into mathematics, science, engineering, and technology. </p>
<p>The group, comprising both minority-serving colleges and prestigious research universities interested in expanding their minority enrollments, had not convened a formal meeting of the presidents since its formation. It asked several of its members to take stock of its efforts before Tuesday’s meeting, at the National Academy of Sciences building, and, following a 90-minute public discussion of their findings, brought the presidents together in a private meeting to decide how to proceed. </p>
<p>“I don’t think any of us think we are anywhere near where we should have been by this date,” said Ruth J. Simmons, president of Brown University, where the alliance has its headquarters. </p>
<p>Several of the presidents blamed what they called “weed-out courses” in the early stages of undergraduate education for driving disproportionate numbers of minority students out of math- and science-related fields. Freeman A. Hrabowski, president of the University of Maryland-Baltimore County, said that even those minority students who go on to earn bachelor’s degrees in such fields often are too discouraged by the difficulty of the experience to consider pursuing a graduate education. </p>
<p>They “don’t go on, quite frankly, because they have not done well as undergraduates,” Mr. Hrabowski said. Colleges should do more to get such students “excited about the work,” he said, and should not be afraid to take steps such as urging students to repeat introductory courses in which they received grades of C or lower to ensure that more-advanced classes do not leave them feeling overwhelmed. </p>
<p>Amy Gutmann, president of the University of Pennsylvania, was among those who suggested that colleges should rethink their reliance on rigorous introductory courses to ensure that prospective science and mathematics students can handle work in those fields. “Just because we have always done it that way does not mean that is the way it has to be done,” she said. </p>
<p>Several college presidents and administrators on hand suggested that earning Advanced Placement credits in high school may have unintended negative consequences for students, minority and otherwise. The speakers said that, as a result of earning such credits, many students place out of introductory courses that they could handle easily, and go straight into more-advanced classes without adequate preparation, earning poor grades that leave them discouraged. </p>
<p>Shirley M. Tilghman, president of Princeton University, suggested that such students may be done “more harm than good” by earning AP credits. </p>
<p>Donna E. Shalala, president of the University of Miami, said she had seen students earn their undergraduate degrees early as a result of Advanced Placement credits but then go on to graduate or medical school without the maturity needed to handle it. “They are getting into trouble later on,” she said. </p>
<p>Participants in the meeting also cited a fear of high student-loan debt and inadequate minority representation on college faculties as factors discouraging minority students from pursuing doctorates in math- and science-related fields. Ms. Tilghman warned that colleges would suffer if they did not get more minority students to earn doctorates and go on to teach. </p>
<p>“If we do not diversify our faculty, we will look increasingly anachronistic,” she said. “Who wants to be part of something that looks like it is basically behind the times?” </p>
<p>The position papers drafted by various participants in Tuesday’s meeting are available at the alliance’s Web site. </p>
<hr>
<p>Background articles from The Chronicle</p>
<p>LOL</p>
<p>I’m not complaining about the SAts and GPAs.</p>
<p>I’m broad-minded and hold like dozens of leaderships, and am involved in dozens of activities (president of 4 clubs, concertmaster…)</p>
<p>And i also volunteer a LOT to help the 3rd world countries and i also have insightful essays</p>
<p>ALL I’M TRYING to say is that STILL, Asians are just disadvantaged TOO much, sacrificing for certain URMs who dont have that much insight/leadership/experience/…</p>
<p>Even if we compete equally I STILL WOUNDN’t HAVE GOT IN HARVARD.(i’m not THAT amazing) BUT a lot of my caucasian and asian friends would</p>
<p>well, that’s just my opinion, i actually believe SAT are overrated and i hate it myself. I believe the most important factors should be experience and essay</p>
<p>AA is unfairly f**king up ppl’s lives while fairly benefiting other people.
AA is needed but needs to be REFORMED, it’s not working well right now, OK</p>
<p>all im saying is that i made the RIGHT choices to do everything I can to improve my caliber and i am still discriminated against</p>
<p>not trying to be a snob, but some people just dont understand.</p>
<p>if i throw u in Beijing ghetto, you WILL have the experience</p>
<p>and the REAL way to eliminate discrimination is to establish ABSOLUTE equality. housing, health care are rights that everyone should have, BUT COLLEGE EDUCATION IS NOT, even some of my African American friends dislike AA. IT NEEDS TO BE REFORMED.</p>
<p>“H doesn’t just want hardworking students. They want broadminded students, students who are striving to eliminate racism”</p>
<p>lol! they accept kids base on how they strive to eliminate racism? thats the GOAL of college? WOW</p>
<p>AA used to work back in the days, BUT it shouldn’t be applied that much NOW</p>
<p>“they accept kids base on how they strive to eliminate racism? thats the GOAL of college? WOW”</p>
<p>Yes, that’s just one of the goals of the college. There are many others that might also surprise you. The fact that you laughed at it and said “wow” is alarming…are you really THAT confused about American history and culture? </p>
<p>I’m not trying to flame anyone…
but I really wonder why immigrants work so hard to be part of the American higher education system, while simultaneously thumbing noses at the principles of admission. You want so badly to be a part of it, but only on your own terms. </p>
<p>And, again, African Americans are not being admitted ANYWHERE simply based on the color of their skin. That’s simply a lie being used to instill fear and spread the hate. Those who continue to spread that lie are racists, pure and simple.</p>
<p>This reminds me of my trips to the Caribbean. Every so often, one of my favorite beaches is “off limits” because of some ecological project to save the coral or fish or whatever. I’m always really disappointed because I’ve travelled so far and just want to sit on my favorite beach and it’s a public beach, right? I should be able to sit on it whenever I want…but I have to remind myself that what I love so much about that beach is it’s beauty and connection to nautre…and whatever ecological work is going on is for the sake of the beach, surrounding environment and my continued enjoyment of this special place for many years to come and those who come after me. And, so, I sometimes have to go to a different beach…knowing that it’s for the best. And, as I sit on whatever beach is available and I look out over the clear sea, surrounding islands and distant sailboats, I am reminded that all of this beauty requires careful attention in order to keep it in this condition…and I should be thankful for those who are willing to do the work for me. In return, I don’t leave my trash on the beach, don’t step on the coral, don’t feed the fish pieces of my hamburger and don’t make a big stink because I sometimes can’t sprawl on the beach of my choice. </p>
<p>There are issues in America that we’re working very hard to address. I think we’re maikng good progress. Thom, please don’t litter on our beach.</p>
<p>Momsdream notes,"
And, again, African Americans are not being admitted ANYWHERE simply based on the color of their skin. That’s simply a lie being used to instill fear and spread the hate. Those who continue to spread that lie are racists, pure and simple."</p>
<p>Response: If you will pardon the pun, you are looking at this as black or white. NO ONE has said that African Americans are being admitted solely on the color of their skin! I have no doubt that those admitted are also quite prepared for the college that they get admitted to. What is of concern is whether they are being admitted OVER some other better qualified applicants solely because of their skin color or racial heritage (hispanic etc.). Again, no one is doubting their qualifications.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I notice that this term is used a lot but what exactly consitutes “better”? I beleive that it is a relative term as to what consitutes better. And who exactly is the expert that determines what is better? Since adcoms take a wholistic approach to assessing candiates, scores are only one component and is not the number one factor in hte admissions process. (check any common data set at a select school where they rank the factors in admissions, and you will not see one that list SAT scores first. The number one factor is grades and the rigor of the curriculum and all education in this country is not equal and every one does not have access to the same quality of education.</p>
<p>If you consider better to be in terms of Stats and scores only, why is it that kids that don’t have an arsenal of 1600’s and 800’s applying to a variety of schools? Surely they must not be as qualified. The person who gets a 1600 on multiple sitting should not be able to apply to any elite school because s/he is not as qualified as the person who got that score in the first sitting.</p>
<p>If better only pertains to stats, explain how students with 4.0’s and 1600’s get rejected and waitlisted at schools where according to you they should be automatic admits any and every where they apply. </p>
<p>The crux of AA is based on having 2 similiary qualified, not 2 equally qualified candidates. SAT scores are also looked at in context of the person’s environment (correlations to income, education of parents)which is the main reason that all scores are not looked at equally. </p>
<p>You listen to scores of people telling their tale of woe about overcomming the lanugage and how their parents/ancestors had nothing when they came here. A highly educated immigrated coming to the U.S. even overcoming a language barrier, and working at a low paying job is still a highly educated immigrant.</p>
<p>If a rich caucasian and a poor asian kid with the same stats are before the admissions commitee, who should be admitted. Any asian person will say the the asian because they have over come so much more blah, blah, blah. It is most likely you won’t hear a caucasian moan about an asian person “taking their spot” even though they may have been given the same AA boost in the selection process.</p>
<p>Sybbie719, I think your argument is like walking on the head of a needle. Yes, some kids regardless of color or heritage are admitted over those with better stats due to other circumstances such as essay, ECs, legacy etc. I am not against these factors per se, although I am against legacies for the same reason that I am against AA.</p>
<p>My concern is whether these kids are being admitted over applicants with the better stats solely because of race or heritage bonus points. You assume that this isn’t the case. You may be correct, and you can also be incorrect too!</p>
<p>As far as why the 4.0 kids with 1600 gets rejected, it could be because of a number of factors, some of which I disagree with. For example, maybe the school has a quota policy on certain religions or certain ethnic groups such as Asians, or on how many can come from a particular high school or state. Maybe it is the quality of ECs or essay. Who knows.</p>
<p>Sybbie719 notes,“It is most likely you won’t hear a caucasian moan about an asian person “taking their spot” even though they may have been given the same AA boost in the selection process”</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I would moan about this too. Again, I am against all quotas and all admissions that aren’t stictly merit based. I am just too nervous that this “Holistic policy” can be used to hide illegal discrimination too.</p>
<p>“they are being admitted OVER some other better qualified applicants solely because of their skin color or racial heritage (hispanic etc.).”</p>
<p>I copied this quote before reading Sybbie’s post. But I see that she has already identified the continued crux of the problem…lay people thinking they have mastered the formula for admission enough to say who should get in and who shouldn’t. </p>
<p>I wonder why they have adcoms. In a formulaic admissions environment, I suppose they could feed test scores and GPAs into a computer and come out with a list of who gets in and who doesn’t. I’m sure the adcoms don’t exist simply for AA purposes. If only 10% of the applicants are URMs, what on earth do the adcoms sit and discuss the other 90% of the time? I bet they SUBJECTIVELY discuss the applications coming from Asian and White applicants, too. You may look better than me on paper…but if they have already admitted 1,000 of you…and I’m offering something unique, I’m in over you. </p>
<p>No matter how many articles are written where adcoms say that the process is subjective, they’re building a class, they admit students - not SAT scores, etc…people still don’t believe them.</p>
<p>It might help to look at it this way:
Let’s say a AfAm male presents a SAT score of 1400. He may not have the 1500-1600 that most of the admitted class has, but he’s got somethign more unique. Somehow, this kid has managed to do something that more than 99% of those in his race cannot do. How many AfAm males scored above a 1400? (I think the answer is something like 120!!! Wow!) At that point, he becomes interesting. There’s somehting in him that has allowed him to break the stereotype…and achieve something extremely rare for his race. Whatever is holding back the other 99%+ of his race isn’t holding him. There are only 100 other African Americans who achieved what he did…hmmmmm.</p>
<p>But…maybe he should be denied. He didn’t match the top scores of the white and Asian applicants. Right? And why shouldn’t THEY be the benchmark? Pretty convenient for them 
</p>
<p>I guess we could justify denying African Americans a part in our country’s educational system until the not-so-distant past (hence, they had to create their own colleges - HBCUs)…and then, when we DO finally decide to allow them to take part in the american university system, we tell them that they can only gain admission IF they can match scores with those if us who have had…oh…100-200 years head start! </p>
<p>If it wasn’t so sad, it would be funny.</p>
<p>Taxguy,</p>
<p>Why is my argument is like walking on the head of a needle? Surely you do realize that schools build classes that align with their mission. Tell me the name of one selective college that takes only the high scorers. At any of them you will students with a range of scores and abilities.</p>
<p>Sybbie719, I am not denying that schools build classes that align with their mission. I just don’t like it when they discriminate based on factors that are unrelated to academics such as religion, race, heritage or even legacy.</p>
<p>Yes, I do know that some of these will never be eliminated.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Is this simply your opinion or is this fact? If you know this to be an absolute fact back it up. Manage the facts. Please share your experience starting with the number of admissions committees that you have sat on where your director explicitly said that we are going to discrimate based on factors unrelated to academics. I am not beyond being enlightened by your wealth of personal hands on experience in this area.</p>