<p>k, I may get flamed for what I am pondering</p>
<p>When does “accomodation” become enabling? how do parents know what is part of the syndrome and what is part of teen behavior that normally wouldn’t be tolerated? </p>
<p>I know parents “get” their own children, but how much behavior is allowed because it could be part of the syndrome, and how much is gotten away with because the teen has figured out they can get away with stuff</p>
<p>this goes back to the original question, for those people that can function well enough to take a test in 2 hours instead of 1 hour</p>
<p>perhaps, and just perhaps, there is over compensation in some parts of the life and behavior that isn’t necessary</p>
<p>i ask out of curiousity…</p>
<p>I remember the story of Helen Keller, and she was allowed to behave pretty horribly, but when Anne Sullivan came in and didn’t tolerate certain behaviors, that so many let slide, amazing things happened</p>
<p>yes I know they are different, but just putting it out there</p>
<p>and believe me I know how hard having a special needs child can be, so this is not at all a judgement, but just a question</p>
<p>Basically, the answer is you are SOL unless you are very, very lucky. At least, that’s what I’m finding the more I research the topic of employment for people with disabilities. While employers are technically required to make “reasonble accomodations” (love the ambiguity of that term), employment discrimination is very, very hard to prove. The facts are that 70% of people with disabilities are unemployed; of those that want jobs, 44% are unemployed and many more are probably very underemployed. Of those with 16+ years of schooling, only 50.6% are employed or actively looking for a job. Ironically, having a non-physical disability can actually be an “advantage” (and I use that term lightly) in this situation, as at least they can perform jobs requiring basic manual labor (lifting, carrying, etc) that people with physical disabilities can’t–I know that’s cold comfort and probably not the type of job skills your college-educated nephew wants or DESERVES, but at least it’s something.</p>
<p>It’s a tad ironic, really: while most of me is going full steam ahead with a double major and minor, a billion activities (research, service, officer positions, clubs), and beginning the search for internships, another part of me is slowly resigning myself to a life of unemployment and living off public assistance and/or my family.</p>
<p>Sorry for the depressing post, but sadly, they’s the facts.</p>
<p>PS. Does the nephew in question have any work experience, internships, or work-like volunteering, especially in his field?</p>
Just saw this on a re-read, and I’m afraid I really disagree. Any professor who wants to make a decent living, much less get tenure, is under pressure to publish scholarly articles in a timely manner, do committee work on schedule, and teach, getting everything in while dealing with administrative and classroom politics. It’s really NOT a “laid back” job from what I’ve heard.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions, I don’t want to be rude, but were you serious when you suggested college professor as a low stress job? There are HUGE deadlines EVERY day-- a prof has to have a lecture prepared! Sure, it can be done in advance, but the next day there is another lecture, and the next and the next… keeping up with it can be extremely hard for young professors, most of whom are the kinds of people who had no trouble at all with the workload of undergrad. Plus, being a professor requires further schooling-- grad school is not usually a low-stress environment. Then there are the things that wolfpiper mentioned-- publication, committee work. These things have deadlines, which many people have a hard time meeting. Those who don’t meet publication deadlines don’t get tenure, and are FIRED. How’s that for pressure?</p>
<p>Sorry to be harsh about this, but I am in my first semester of adjunct teaching, and lecture prep is nearly killing me! Plus, I don’t even earn a living wage. And I have no guaranteed job after December. Yet, I am THRILLED to have the job I have.</p>
<p>To the OP: I don’t think 20 is too late at all to turn around his attitude. Sounds like he may have a rude awakening coming, but that’s not the end of the world, and he won’t be the only one to have it. I agree that he may want to be self-employed, where he can control the amount of work he takes on.</p>
No flames here. Yours is a very legitimate question although to truly understand the answer, you have to be able to understand how the mind of a typical (not all are alike - it comes in varying degrees of gray which of course complicates everything) autistic works.</p>
<p>If you start with how an infant perceives the world right after birth - a noisy, bright, and cold place, much different from the womb that s/he has always known. The few comforts an infant knows are food and warmth which quickly get associated with that warm person who feeds them with a gentle, quiet voice, and kind eyes (aka Mom usually). They start learning an order to the world and that when they cry, eventually something gets done about their problem.</p>
<p>Putting an order to the world is sooo much of what childhood is about. But to the autistic child, the sensory stimulation is perceived differently (stronger) and they are often overcome by their surroundings and their brains don’t build the comfort associations that a normal child would. They are not sure why, but recent brain scan tests I’ve read about show that autistic individuals’ brains are activated in different areas to different degrees when presented different stimuli.</p>
<p>I know that in the case of our son, when I would change him, I would often turn on one of these Fischer Price yellow birds (they still sell them I believe) that play gentle nursery rhymes (Muffin Man comes to mind here). He would come unglued and wouldn’t stop crying until it was turned off. Even singing would cause him to be uncomfortable.</p>
<p>So when you have trouble making positive people and stimuli relationships from the get-go, making more advanced social relationships based upon this initial trust is inhibited. The autistic child (and ultimately adult) is all about the here an now and what calms the immediate overstimulation.</p>
<p>I have found that training (and I use that term intentionally) the autistic child is about setting very black and white rules for engagement (with consequences) and trying to anticipate the nuances that occur in everyday life (which they struggle with). They have not developed that same reciprical bond with others that most people develop. It is not that they don’t want others around them to be happy and like them. They just don’t understand how others’ think about a situation very well. They have difficulty projecting that others could feel differently about a situation than they do, as they spend their entire existance dealing with their own overstimulation and not learning how others deal with life.</p>
<p>The idea of “getting away with” as you put it doesn’t register the same with an autistic as it does with most people. “Getting away with it” deals with cheating as THEY see the world. Yes, they will try to cut the corners THEY understand as the transactional rules of life. It is a normal part of the human condition to succomb to temptation. However, as parents, we must be able to discern between what THEY understand the rules as and the subtleties that we see in the rules - How does an action make those around us feel?</p>
<p>This is where the parenting of an autistic child - and for that matter managing an autistic adult in the workplace - come into play. We pull our hair out as the simple rules of the elementary schoolyard become more complex and nuanced and our autistic children become more and more frustrated with why they are being treated differently. They often lash out at what they perceive as the unfairness of how they are treated and come up with what seems like absurd solutions (suing for more time to do your work - as was put by the OP) that fit their black and white view of how their world should work.</p>
<p>And because the peripheral people in their lives (teachers, bosses, etc.) don’t have a complete picture of how the autistic views their transactional relationships (this is the best term I can use to describe how they function), they often will see the autistic as trying to “get away with” things.</p>
<p>If it seems that I am having a moment of clarity here, trust me, it is far more difficult to be this clear when the emotions of dealing with your own child interfere with the moment! It is a lot harder than it looks.</p>
<p>If there is one thing that a person can do for an autistic, it is to smile and accept that s/he is trying the best that they can to make you happy as they perceive you function (like them). To the extent that we can be flexible with them in most of our dealings, they won’t try to “cheat” to extract what they see as theirs. For the most part, they are harder on themselves as they have a black and white standard which they judge everyone by.</p>
<p>I listen to my son talk about work at the grocery store - a good 5 minute diatribe that I invite when I am the first to see him after a difficult day, tends to focus on what the other baggers/checkers were doing that were not part of the rules. On a good day, he will talk about how some little old lady put in a compliment card because he helped her find something she was looking for or the like. He is really proud that he gets recognized for these things. Most teenagers blow that type of stuff off and just after a couple. Each one is special to my son.</p>
<p>I hope this has been interesting, if not helpful into understanding that not all minds (particularly autistic) work alike with the same inputs. </p>
<p>And flaming, not here! Always happy to provide some insight in a supportive environment.</p>
<p>Mombot, you hit my nail on the head in post #18.</p>
<p>I worry that my nephew and others like him have never had to make an effort to adapt to the world as it is. He has gone throught his educational career expecting to have as much time as he needs/wants for each assignment. He has often been able to get his assignments “adjusted”–made easier, or shorter, or fewer, or less complicated.</p>
<p>The accomodations have helped him cope and achieve in the short run but I wonder if whether they have done him a disservice in the long run.</p>
<p>I have suggested to my SIL that perhaps my nephew try to ramp it up a bit at a time–maybe take a semester with a full course load (he always takes 12-13 hours a semester instead of 15-16) or to at least take his reduced courseload w/o using accomodations , as ways of beginning to adapt to the world that will await him in the workplace. I don’t think my nephew will want to do this.</p>
<p>Wolfpiper, you are one of the people I truly admire. Your achievements are remarkable even for a person who does not face your struggles. It is harsh that your life choices are being circumscribed as they are but I have no doubt that whatever paths you pursue in life you will be a huge success. I only wish my nephew had 1% of your gumption and tenacity.</p>
<p>Thanks for your perspective. I don’t know that my nephew has ever been evaluated for autism spectrum but I will ask my SIL because some of what you describe with your son certainly seems to apply to my nephew as well.</p>
<p>And no flames from me, either, because we are wondering these same things. My son has Asperger Syndrome, and is a senior in college (majoring in Computer Science). This past summer he had an internship with a company in a neighboring city. They were flexible about his hours (he could go in late), and mentioned wanting to hire him after he graduates. His dad and I are concerned about health insurance, though. It is such a small firm that we wonder if they even offer health insurance to fulltime employees. Getting him health insurance isn’t going to be a cheap proposition, because of his medical/psych history. </p>
<p>We are encouraging him to apply for jobs with the school system, local government, state government, federal government, local hospital monopoly, etc.</p>
<p>I am feeling so fortunate right now that my 16 year old Aspie son has very simple tastes…doesn’t seem to desire money or status. (Now, if he can only avoid marrying a woman who wants those things!) I always say that if he has a clean dry place to stay, with a car that runs and enough money for a few electronics, my son will be very happy. DS is interested in Psychology. For him, it may be better for him to be a school district Diagnostician, rather than in possibly more lucrative clinical practice.</p>
<p>There ARE professional positions out there that are low-stress. But they generally (always?) aren’t the most high paying. For example, my sister’s ex-husband works for the state in a computer-type position where he essentially works alone with few deadlines and great job security.</p>
<p>Looking at the debate about a college professor being a high or low stress job, I thought I’d throw in my anecdote.</p>
<p>I just finished writing about how autistic individuals view the world, and yes an autistic (such as Aspergers) can function as a college professor in certain circumstances. In fact, I’m pretty sure that one of the regular passengers on the bus I ride to work is in fact an Aspergers who is an adjunct math instuctor at the local university.</p>
<p>I’ve had ample opportunity to observe and interact (I’m far more comfortable doing this than my fellow bus passengers from my own personal experience) with this individual on the bus over the past couple of years. The (single) man in question is about 50 years old and lives at home with his mother ostensibly looking after each other. </p>
<p>His behavior on and around the bus, generally attracts attention of others, but is not “bad” by any means. He is known for having multiple parcels (books, lunch, files, etc.) that he meticulously loads on the bus 1 at a time securing them in a small storage area before he fishes his wallet out of his pocket to retrieve his bus pass. When he disembarks, he unloads all of his parcels, one at a time, off the bus and then goes back to make sure he hasn’t left anything behind. It would appear as a obsessive compulsive behavior.</p>
<p>His dress and how he carries himself, is not typical even of the stereotypical bow-tie type professor at a university. It is definitely not fashionable, with deck shoes and mid-rise white socks, khaki shorts and madrass shirt with exposed white undershirt, and large tortise-shelled glasses from the 1980’s. His gate is mechanical and when he turns to do things it is always a 90 degree pivot, not a rounding of a corner.</p>
<p>In talking to him, before starting as an instructor he worked for a contracting firm doing research at a well-know local federal research facility, but was laid off when the grants dried up. He never really understood the whole grant funding thing and had no interest in it, but understood that his career there was over.</p>
<p>He seems to really enjoy teaching - even remedial math - to the young kids who come to his office hours (he is meticulous about staying until the last student is finished - often in a hurry to catch the bus). He seems to sense in these kids an interest in the subject that I personally don’t think is there. Let’s face it, most kids taking remedial math are doing so only because their major requires a modicum of math and they have other, more important subjects. I think his own interest in the math is projected on his students - a bit naiive especially for someone his age. We’ve talked about students who cheat on exams and he seem a bit perplexed that they would feel the need to do this. Perhaps I am jaded.</p>
<p>When I watch him on the bus, he is either grading papers (often oblivious of when we are arriving at our final destination) or reading ahead in the text book to see how the next lecture should be prepared. Very dedicated to his work. If my child were required to take that class, I would want him as an instructor, as usually the lot you get for these classes view their students as slackers or worse. He has a wonderful attitude towards his work and students. For a person who has been through the rough and tumble of life, it is a strange blessing to be so oblivious to the cynicism around.</p>
<p>Now granted, this particular “professor” (that is the nickname the other bus riders call him - a strange compliment) has a very limited scope - no grants to write, no pressing research deadlines to get published, etc., but he has lived in the get grants and publish or perish world in his previous employment and come out OK. </p>
<p>My thinking here is that it is very much an case-by-case for each of these individuals to find a career that is rewarding and that they can be effective in. Where you can be effective is often a niche that is not easily replicated.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure that the guy at the middle school who is Everyone’s Favorite History Teacher Ever is an Aspie. Each day’s class is a very rich, humorous monologue that the students remember years later. But when we as parents talk to him, he is very socially awkward. I think he has found his perfect job. He doesn’t coach or sponsor any extra cirricular activites. He concentrates on being a great teacher. He isn’t trying to work his way into administration the way most of the other male middle school teachers seem to be. The down side is, he makes what a public school teacher makes. No wealth or glamour…but he is beloved.</p>
<p>For some people on the autism spectrum, teaching could be great, I agree. Many people on the spectrum are very good at processing certain types of information quickly, and their weaknesses are in areas such as social interaction. So teaching may not cause them “stress” the same way that other things will. However, the OP’s nephew has not been diagnosed as being on the spectrum (though he may be on it). What we know is that he experiences anxiety and stress and is unable to do academic assignments in a timely manner. Sounds like teaching-- the ultimate in “academic assignments”-- might cause HIM stress. I was reacting to the idea that college level teaching is the ultimate in laid-back jobs-- it is not. Computer programming is not either, but some aspies do very well in it.</p>
<p>Of course, teaching (esp squirmy, noisy little kids) could be a nighmare for those with sensory issues. A friend of my son’s is a more severe Aspie. He plays in the band and it’s so sad to see him at pep rallies…he’s crammed in a gym full of a couple of thousand noisy teens and when he’s not playiing, he just sort of crouches with his head down.</p>
<p>I am supervising an Aspie intern, who with accomodations has has completed college and law school, but who is unable to adjust to a “real world” law office (and my office is VERY laid back). I can’t think of an area of law for which he would be well-suited. He’d probably fare better at a lower-level job, but is unlikely to consider non-attny positions now that he has a JD. </p>
<p>I understand your pain, nyc. I think nobody wanted to tell your intern and those supporting him over the years that social skills above normal are a requirement of most attorney positions.</p>
<p>Looking for solutions, if the law is his true interest (and not just making the world fit his view of the law), perhaps a legal research type job might be in order? One thing I have observed in aspie’s over the years is that their fixation on a subject can yield impressive results.</p>
<p>Hi, Irene, I’m the poster who introduced this idea, which you questioned based on your personal, first-hand knowledge as an adjunct professor.</p>
<p>Well, I would be the last to diminish anyone’s profession as low-stress! So I really should have made this more clear in my first post. I’m thinking of a different kind of college teaching than I think you do. Both my parents were college professors (dad in Poli Sci, mom in Business/Econ), but they taught in a modest college that emphasizes help for learning disabled students (New England College, Henniker, NH) and attracts students without LD’s whose SAT’s range in the 500 neighborhood, not the 650+ neighborhood. There are 1,000 students there and l00 faculty, so the ratio is excellent. Never once did they ever hear a peep about publishing. The entire emphasis was on teaching.</p>
<p>I know others in my current community who teach at community and junior colleges. Similarly, they’re not pressed to publish.</p>
<p>But I also have a first cousin who’s a prof at Syracuse U, and you’d better believe he’s publishing all the time, and written a book now working on another. </p>
<p>I think these are two different kinds of college teaching, and I feel that I should have made that more clear in my first post.</p>
<p>My only real point is that, as I saw my parents prepare their lessons at home, they had nobody telling them how long to work on each lecture. If my Mom wanted to stay up until 2 a.m. to add some interesting new twists to her lecture, she did. All she had to do was be in that room, ready to teach the next day. Importantly, she had to make it good enough that her students learned and found it interesting. But her preparation time was her own. I thought if someone has a serious issue already that requires time-and=a=half
then something where he’s in charge of ballooning his prep time (out of the office) is helpful. He can TAKE his own time-and-a-half, in other words, as it’s not on “company time.” </p>
<p>Then I went on to break out the stress issue, and make a suggestion about it, and say that it has to be worked upon NO MATTER what the profession. </p>
<p>I surely did not mean to denegrate college teaching as “laid back” in all situations. Actually, my folks had to help each other a lot because of the politics of faculty life, and that (not the teaching or prep) was stressful, involving successful human interaction. They did note that many faculty had rather clunky interpersonal skills, but didn’t judge each other on it as much as would have been the case in a business or government type job. </p>
<p>And since I taught First Graders for a decade, Irene I do know how obnoxious it is when someone says your job is “simple” when it’s not. I recall trying on shoes and having a shoe salesman say, “why do you say you need shoes to support your feet? Don’t teachers just sit at a desk all day…” I wanted him to know my task resembled a gymnast more than an office clerk, and that the desk was a landing spot for my teaching materials but that I never actually sat behind or near it all day. I think he remembered his h.s. teachers and projected that onto the elementary teachers.</p>
<p>I also think you have a much harder job than my parents did, because they taught in a time when expectations were lower than today. An adjunct professor works extremely hard. So please accept my apology if I suggested otherwise.</p>
<p>CGM, that was brave of you to post something so un-PC ;)</p>
<p>But it’s worth a thought. My brother, who suffered not from Autism Spectrum Disorder but from Bipolar Disorder his entire life ended up having some real challenges re: personality and basic getting-along skills. At one point, my mom even said, “I can’t tell what’s the illness and what’s just personality” because he could be sharp and rude and difficult at times. </p>
<p>He got a hold of it, however, in his 50’s and is very good to deal with today, usually but not always. He’s learned to recognize his triggers and has strategies to deal with them, but all that came from training (that WRAP program from NAMI). </p>
<p>My mom was very good, I thought, at counseling him through and saying to him, look, if you blow up at people at work, they ARE going to fire you, so if you want to blow up, call me instead and I’ll hear it out.</p>
<p>I think that was great parenting. It didn’t enable, it didn’t say “oh those nasty people at work who don’t understand you…” but it gave him a pressure-valve release for all that stress. Now he’s found a lady partner who works in that field, and they understand and support each other well. Good thing, because when my mom finally passes, he’ll have no one. My younger brother and I just don’t do what my Mom does. She’s so patient, and BTW suffered the same disease so she knows it inside-out.</p>
<p>Very hard not to enable when you love someone, but everybody needs someone “in their corner” and often that’s a parent. It’s such a subtle difference.</p>
<p>paying3, no offense taken. I am a little sensitive on the subject at the moment, as I am three weeks into my new job, and it’s not easy. It will probably get easier as I become more comfortable with it. I agree that there is a big difference between “my” kind of academic career, and those who work at community colleges or other schools where there is no pressure to do outside scholarly work. As an adjunct, I am not pressured by the department to do outside work, but obviously if I wish to move up in the world (and I do!), I have to worry about these things. Also, class size makes a difference-- smaller classes can have more discussion, which takes some pressure off the teacher.</p>
<p>Quirky people are more accepted in university faculties than in other types of jobs, so that can be a big plus for many. Certainly a person who “gets less done” could be happy teaching, say, one class per semester. This would be a part time job for most, but a full time job for them-- and clearly they wouldn’t be able to demand much money.</p>
<p>Two small anecdotes: I work in a law firm and the person who handles the faxes has Aspergers. She is hardworking and good-hearted, but some the social aspects can be a bit difficult. For example, she will yell the entire length of a corridor to tell someone something and disrupt half a floor of work, she gets upset at small setbacks, but we all love her and she contributes to the firm and will surely have a job until she retires. The second is a relative’s fiancee. she is learning disabled and went to a college that has a lot of support. She earned her master’s degree in elementary education (with a lot of help from my relative) but can’t pass the required tests to become certified and has been unable to find a job after three years. She has a great deal of student debt and is now working off the books as a nanny. In her situation, I think this beautiful girl was not done a service. She was accommodated all the way through an expensive private college but then hit a brick wall. I have no idea what the answer is, but I’m sad about it.</p>
<p>Aww, thanks! That was really nice to read, though I sometimes do think that perhaps my drive and intelligence is somewhat wasted on me due to my disability. I think that my abled-bodied brother could have done more with my kind of drive than I can (he doesn’t need my intelligence–he has more than enough of his own!).</p>
That was really nice to read, though I sometimes do think that perhaps my drive and intelligence is somewhat wasted on me due to my disability. I think that my abled-bodied brother could have done more with my kind of drive than I can (he doesn’t need my intelligence–he has more than enough of his own!).</p>