I don’t come here to be redirected to a bunch of other links, but thanks anyway.
The prestige game is ridiculous. Your daughter should visit as many schools as she can and apply to the ones she feels she would like to spend four years attending based on all the “factors.”. BTW Colgate is a great school and she would have a reasonable chance of getting in there.
Something else to consider is it’s often easier to stand out at a “less-prestigious” school. But the bottom line is finding the right fit for the student. For some it’s an Ivy, for others it’s a directional, etc.
Well if you’ve ever had a kid who decided the highest ranked college was the best choice then decided to transfer because he disliked the college you quickly realize “prestige” as being the number one quality to choose is not always the best qualifier. There are tons of threads that discuss the qualities to be considered when selecting a college.
Lehigh has a huge binge drinking problem. I was on a fraternity advisory board for the school and saw first hand the issues they face. The greek houses are on the Hill and they have keg parties every weekend. A quote from a student, ‘The workload and level of difficulty is so high we don’t have time for relationships. We drink Thursday - Saturday then back to work on Sunday.’
I would aim low and have a few reaches. Many, including me/us, made the terrible mistake of aiming high figuring the reaches weren’t so much of a reach with the safeties as a “whatever”. As it turned out - one of the safeties is a jewel of epic proportions which was only discovered by being rejected everywhere.
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Maybe I suffer from being in New England, but I don’t have a sense that prestige is worth investing in other than maybe the top 10-15 schools (they offer education, network and aspirations) and maybe a few specialty schools that are really superior in their field. By investing, I mean altering choices from what you would otherwise do ignoring prestige. I think you can get an equivalently good education at lots of schools. So the things I might focus on are fit (per @compmom) and alumni network (Michigan is probably pretty strong there among the schools the OP listed). Prestige is also in the eye of the beholder. I don’t know that BU buys you much if you are applying for jobs in California.
Even in the top 10-15, prestige may not be worth investing in. Does your D have a sense of why she thinks prestige matters? For some purposes, it may well be better to be at the top of your class in a lesser school than pretty good at a modestly prestigious school. For others, going to a school with a rabid alumni network local to the school may be the biggest help.
I have a lot of respect for Rochester – I think it has been underrated – and know very successful grads.
P.S., this is not intended to be the typical anti-Ivy screed that pops up on CC with regularity. I see immense benefits from some of the top schools depending upon your field. I attended three of HPYSM and taught at one and my son has two degrees from one. The benefits accorded by the appropriate forehead stamp and network can last a lifetime in the right fields. High aspirations can be a blessing or a curse.
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“UNC is also popular but it’s incredibly hard to get in. A few kids got into Cornell and UM but rejected by UNC last year.”
UNC caps OOS at 18% while UM had a 50/50 split I think in their most recent class. UM is looking for sure, to diversify its undergrad colleges and out of state is one way, along with oos tuition of course. While UNC has a lower OOS acceptance rate, not sure it’s tougher to get into than UM or Cornell.
The 25/75 for UNC is 1310/1480, UM, 1380/1540, Cornell 1400/1560.
That means that stronger students are applying to UM and Cornell vs UNC. In the bay area you’re not applying to either unless you have a 3.9/1500.
^^ UNC caps OOS at 18%, but I also heard (i have no source to support this, just anecdote ) that for NJ it is less than 10%. They cap by state also, not just overall OOS. Our particular HS consistently sends more kids to the ivies than to UNC, not for lack of trying.
@bester1 I didn’t click through the links, but how many of them discuss parental pressure? My D is thriving as a STEM major at her ivy but says there are many kids there who have been forced down that path by their parents. Those kids are miserable, crying in the dorm, and generally depressed. Maybe they would’ve been happier at a state flagship.
Then, there is the other side of the coin: high performing kids who put a lot of pressure on themselves. I have two of them. I don’t expect perfection from them in school or life, but they do; that is the standard to which they hold themselves. D’s school has a bunch of those students too. Some kids thrive under pressure, some don’t. It’s up to parents to do find a college that fits their kid. It’s not settling if the kid is happy. Optimal fit is the goal.
Yeah coming from up north to UNC you can get into an ivy and not into UNC. I think a lot of it has to do with their holistic application process as well as the out of state cap. I got there in out of state and let me tell you it was not easy, but I always encourage anyone to apply as you never know whether or not you will be accepted
About 5 years ago, the CC at our school showed us a number of schools that had students with the same SAT/ACT range but very different acceptance rates. I think Trinity (CT) and Wooster may have been one pair. Most of the parents in the room had never heard of Wooster, but they sure perked up when they realized that the students were academically similar and that it gave merit aid. So often, prestige isn’t even related to anything real.
The lawsuit suggests UNC:CH in-state and out-of-state have completely different degrees of selectivity, and the small 18% minority OOS are not well reflected by the overall class stats.
For example, a comparison of admit rate by academic index decile is below, for White applicants during the lawsuit period (several years ago). Top stats all but guaranteed acceptance rate for in state, but most out of state with top stats were rejected. Middle stat applicants had a ~10x higher acceptance rate if in state… likely almost no chance out of state unless strong hooks. Out of state applicants overall admit rate was a small fraction of the in state admit rate and was much lower than Cornell’s admit rate during this period.
Top Decile – 99% admit rate in state , 42% out of state
2nd Decile – 94% admit rate in state , 27% out of state
3rd Decile – 84% admit rate in state , 16% out of state
4th Decile – 69% admit rate in state , 9% out of state
5th Decile – 47% admit rate in state , 5% out of state
6th Decile – 30% admit rate in state , 3% out of state
7th Decile – 18% admit rate in state , 1% out of state
Which school is tougher to get in to depends on the specific applicant. The two schools emphasize different admission critiera/hooks, and that critieria differs by department. For example, Cornell SHA had a 24% admit rate this year and a mean SAT of high 1300s; while Cornell Engineering had a 10% admit rate (7% male, 19% female) and a mean SAT of low 1500s. However, this doesn’t mean SHA is an easy acceptance. They emphasize other critiera besides scores. . >80% of the class typically has hospitality experience, and likely a glowing hospitality related LOR.
It is not at all surprising to me that some OOS kids are accepted to Cornell and rejected to UNC, as well as the reverse. Admission decisions and selectivity can be quite different from prestige rankings. A kid who thinks out of state UNC:CH is “settling” and not “aiming high” may be in for a surprise.
Every year Cornell accepts about 8-10 students from our northeast area HS, Michigan accepts about 8, and UNC accepts 1 (very occasionally 2, sometimes 0). Many of our students apply to all 3 schools. It is also “easier” to get into UVA from our HS than UNC; UVA consistently accepts 2 students each year, and these students are always the top 2 who apply (usually about 20 apply).
Based on my observations over the years, OOS acceptance to UNC varies by state…and by HS. Acceptance to any of the above mentioned schools is extremely competitive…and to think UNC (OOS) isn’t included in that group is very naive.
As far as high performing kids putting too much pressure on themselves…that is absolutely real and should be taken into consideration when choosing a school.
Let’s not trust some random media source because one found an article. Or what someone told you they heard. The issue here is admissions and, ok, so it takes a bit of effort to understand options and chances, then weigh those options in some rational way.
You dig deeper than what happens solely at your own hs. Or to someone you know. And recognize that the pool of top performers applying to name colleges (and I do include certain flagships) is monstrously competitive. (Many parents of kids in top high schools in NJ, as a CC example, are aghast at the high school stresses, where the bar is set. And in other locations.) It means adcoms have a highly qualified pool of applicants to cherry pick among. The higher the college tier, the more any lacking can affect your shot.
You also dig deeper than the CDS and then reflect on what “demonstrated interest” really is to an adcom, picking a class out of thousands of accompished candidates (including tier 2 or 3 colleges.) Sure, someone may check the portal logs. But it’s much more than that. If you don’t know your match, in the colleges’s terms, you risk giving them little reason to want you, over others. No matter whether you check the portal over and over. So don’t base decisions on how many got in from your hs or state- you don’t know their apps. You can only control yours. And, before that, your own balanced exploration and assessment.
I’ve long thought most of us here try hard not to point fingers at the kids. We try not to say, “You failed on some bullet.” Nor, “You weren’t as meaningful to College X as some other kids.” But when you speak of selective holistic colleges, the actual competition is that ridiculous. It’s not as simple as throwing your hat into the ring because, what the heck. That’s crapshooting.
Finding the right colleges for you is a lot more than name rank. And as many posters say, there’s happiness, accomplishment, social success, and a bright, promising future, to be had via so many colleges.
Getting back to the original question…going to BU or Lehigh is not “settling.” And to think that somebody will think less of you because you attended one of these schools over Tufts or Emory…is silly. They are all excellent schools. Nobody cares…really. It’s all about what you do while you are there.
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I think everyone should aim high in the sense that they apply tp the best, most appropriate, and affordable schools that fit their needs and aspirations, and have a chance of getting in. “fit” shoud have nothing to do with prestige. That is the main flaw in the OP.
In addition, every applicant should have schools on their list that they could be happy with and are likely to get into. This is not “settling.”
The problems arise when kids (and families) get fixated on one school or a group of schools (in the case of the Ivy League). Then the kid is stuck “settling” when that school or group doesn’t work out. Stay flexible.
As for Ivy-bashing: mental health issues are on the rise everywhere, not just at Ivies. I personally feel that childhood should be restored. All day school with academics for 4 and 5 year olds is causing stress too. But the biggest factor, I have been told, in high school student distress is social media.
Ivy League schools can be a great experience and most of all, the financial aid is incredible. This thread was not about the Ivies or little Ivies, but there is always someone out there to bash top schools.
Ivy league and “elite” schools are so hyper-competitive now that it’s no longer a competition. It’s just a lottery of smart kids. 20 years ago, scoring perfect on the SAT actually made news. Now, it’s been changed and dumbed down to where any kid in the top 10% can have a perfect score. Unfortunately kids are still treating these schools like a competition, and placing unreasonable expectations on themselves thinking it’ll somehow give them a “competitive edge.” These kind of “expectations” would be challenging for a full grown adult, much less an emotionally immature teenager. It sends the message to kids that, in order to get what I want, I have to compete by ignoring everything essential in my life because prestige and approval from other is what really matters.
The workforce doesn’t work that way at all. In fact, employees with that attitude either don’t get hired, or don’t last long when they do. It’s about collaboration and work/life balance.
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Have to say, it’s not a lottery.
But it IS a contest of sorts. You need to be one they want, ring all their chimes. (They don’t spin the wheel.) You need to understand what that is and show it in your full app. Same as any competition.
It’s not enough to be “smart.” Not the smart that makes you a hs top dawg. This is about college apps.
Well…I know a number of Lehigh grads. They are very very successful in their careers. I was at a wedding recently with a bunch of them, and they agreed they worked hard and played hard, but none were binge drinking and no one was an alcoholic or member of AA.
And all were Greek at Lehigh.