Aiming way too high?

Colleges & Universities Harvey Mudd College
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<p>I agree BicoastalMamma is right that anyone considering Harvey Mudd, Caltech, MIT, etc., needs to consider how hard the student is going to have to work (and even harder if the major is in engineering) and recognize that half of the class in these schools is now in the bottom half of the class. My son, at HMC, works like a dog and I think lives on caffeine (I try not to think about it, or that when he sends an email at 6 am, it doesn’t mean he got up early). So, if you don’t want to work like this or risk having a low GPA, HMC or any of these top-tier engineering schools may not be for you. As an aside, the grad schools and employers know what the grades are at HMC, so they “inflate up” when comparing the Mudders to those who go to other schools. </p>

<p>However, I take strong issue with BicoastalMamma’s posts that the HMC professors don’t care or that the tutors don’t help. This just hasn’t been my son’s experience. Moreover, the students themselves help each other. My impression is that HMC is much more supportive than other similar schools. My son is sleep deprived but very happy at Mudd. And he didn’t have 800’s on his SATs.</p>

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<p>I am coming very late to this thread, but have just read it from beginning to end.</p>

<p>I can see both points of view. I think the parents and profs and students at HMC are caring. And I <em>do</em> think it was well intentioned for parents to contact the school about the young man in question, however, I <em>do</em> think a breach in confidentiality and would also be perturbed if I was in the situation of this mother.</p>

<p>I think the biggest factor in success in desire. And each student should measure his/her desire to really buckle down. I advised my own S to go to an easier school than the one he chose. He GPA is fine, but there have been times he has been discouraged. It was his choice to choose the hardest school he was accepted to, and he has learned a lot.</p>

<p>When I asked him if he wanted to transfer, he didn’t. </p>

<p>This boy has that option.</p>

<p>This mom just seems extremely frightened to me. It’s kind of all of you to try and explain the culture of the school, but she doesn’t seem to quite be able to grasp it or at the very least, doesn’t sympathize with the approach.</p>

<p>We don’t really know how the son feels.</p>

<p>That said, man, I wish I am my family had those math genes. We’re social science, humanities and fine arts folk.</p>

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<p>To you incoming students. Do you really think the failing students are going to walk up to you and say: </p>

<p>"I am flunking out, but I glad I had the opportunity to flunk out of such a prestigious college. I was awarded a full scholarship at 3rd tier U for my excellent grades, outstanding recommendations, and decent but average test scores. I gave up that scholarship for the opportunity to come here. Now, I have no idea what or where I am going or whether I will ever graduate college. Too bad, I really like this school and the labs except on test days. I don’t know whether I should stick around and take the finals, and risk having a transcript showing 3 Fs or whether I should just walk out in the middle of the semester with incompletes and have it look like I am a flake. </p>

<p>I stay up until 2 or 3 in the morning. I am exhausted and some people fall asleep in class. I go to every AE and I have talked to the professors. I would love to join a study group, but of course, most other students do not want to include me even though I am able to help some people with the homework. So, those of us who are struggling try our best to help each other. I have an appointment with the dean next week. Maybe she will have some good ideas. Maybe I can get some extra tutoring. There are finals in 4 weeks. Maybe if I study every minute between now and then, never leaving my room except for class and studying, I can get some Cs. A lot of my classmates can party all the time and still get As. They must so smart and I guess 3 year of physics and chemistry in high school probably helps. I am really very scared and disappointed in myself. I never got anything lower than an A in the last 12 years." </p>

<p>Oh well, all science programs have attrition rates, <a href=“http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,4,7;journal,25,41;linkingpublicationresults,1:300319,1[/url]”>http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,4,7;journal,25,41;linkingpublicationresults,1:300319,1&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>To those incoming students who find math super easy and did not have to study at all in high school, who scored over 750 on the SAT Math II, you are going to luuuuuv Harvey Mudd, you will so much fun.</p>

<p>The whole point of posting is to alert non-geniuses and parents of non-geniuses that a significant number of geniuses go to this school. You knew that already but it is hard to realize what that means. I went to a college where there was maybe 1 or 2 geniuses/class. They could be ignored. The geniuses could finish the test in 20 minutes and walk out without affecting the grades of the merely normal or bright or endangering your ability to pass. Not at Harvey Mudd and I guess the other elite engineering schools.</p>

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<p>Bicoastal Mamma, if it’s clearly not working out for your son at Harvey Mudd, why not encourage him to transfer? Particularly if he has interest / aptitude in the humanities? Perhaps engineering wasn’t the best choice. There’s no shame in that.</p>

<p>What do YOU want to happen? Do you want him to stay there, even though he’s struggling? Do you want him to get help – or do you think he doesn’t have what it takes?</p>

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<p>I want people who go to urban high schools to know how much better the prep, foreign, and suburban high schools are. Way, way better. I want non-geniuses to know what they are facing at Mudd and that there are plenty of engineering schools where they don’t give tests to freshman that grad students at State U would find difficult. Where student who work hard and diligently and have normal IQs can graduate. I want geniuses to know that Mudd can be one exciting party, intellectually as well as social. I don’t think the geniuses compete with each other which is an advantage. The campus and town are cute. I would like my son and his friends to get help but I don’t know if it is too late or they are too exhausted. He has aptitude in the humanities but zero interest and I mean zero.</p>

<p>I wish I could turn back time or had some hope for the future.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>If it requires a month of straight studying to get Cs, you should transfer.</p></li>
<li><p>No one will include you in a study group? I find this to be borderline ridiculous; are you sure your son is actually communicating with people and isn’t simply afraid? Going to AE is usually in itself enough to finish the work and is a study group at the very least.</p></li>
<li><p>“I never got anything lower than an A in the last 12 years.” DO NOT compare anything you’ve ever done to Mudd, it is entirely different and pointless to draw comparisons. It sounds like your son may be psyching himself out with his (and your) obsession with how poorly he is doing.</p></li>
<li><p>“To those incoming students who find math super easy and did not have to study at all in high school, who scored over 750 on the SAT Math II, you are going to luuuuuv Harvey Mudd, you will so much fun.” This is nearly insulting, EVERYONE has trouble with something and works their ass off to get the work done. It is not a walk in the park for anyone.</p></li>
<li><p>I think the graduation rate for Mudd is somewhere in the 80% range. Many people from my year transferred out, one went to CMC I recall, and they were all intelligent people. You seem to think transferring out is being a flake, but it’s really just doing what has to be done. It won’t ruin your life, in fact it will make your life far better if you’re really that miserable.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Some people need the scholarship. Transferring on a bad transcript won’t get you a scholarship. Sure, it is possible to graduate in 10 years going to school part time and working if you can get a job, but it is a pity to have given up full scholarships at easier schools or maybe it is even better to struggle thru at Mudd with a scholarship. </p>

<p>I forgot some of the math geniuses can’t write and flunk humanities classes. Something to consider when comparing HMC to other math & science programs. Of course, there are the math geniuses who write like a pro. Working their ass off for some students is working all night to finish their homework after a date, a party, a bake-off and 4 hour video game marathon. I am exaggerating, so don’t tell me you don’t know anyone who did all that in one day. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Mudd; I just want people to know just how smart the students are and how hard the classes are. I have met a lot of Nobel prize winners and Ph.d economists in my time. They would be working hard at Mudd.</p>

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<p>I think that no matter what else you have going for you, all they end up looking at is SATs.</p>

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<p>OK, so now we all know how smart the students are and how hard the classes are.
How does that help your son? </p>

<p>Again, he can’t be happy, struggling like this. Will he consider transferring?</p>

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<p>It sounds like Bicoastal-kid is in a tough spot. The scholarship offers from other colleges last year are likely not available now. </p>

<p>Does anyone have an encouraging story to offer, where a Mudd student was able to transfer to a school with scholarship? Or to at lease transfer to a state school salvaging some transfer credits?</p>

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<p>This is stupid.
Obviously it’s hard. If your son didn’t know it was hard when he applied and decided to matriculate, then he obviously did no research on the school. It is one of the most challenging schools in the nation. No one is arguing with that.</p>

<p>He was accepted. This means that the admissions office looked at the rigor of his school, his classes, and his scores and decided he could make it at Mudd. This doesn’t mean they thought he would breeze through like he did in high school. But with effort, he has the potential to succeed. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have been admitted.</p>

<p>There are an incredibly large amount of resources available to him. If he didn’t take advantage of them, then that sucks. But the administration and students stress from the very beginning that collaboration in a necessity. Work really has to be done in groups and you can’t be afraid to ask for help.</p>

<p>The claims that professors were unwilling to help and students didn’t want him in their study groups is absurd. I talked to people who said they often did their entire math problem sets at AE and could always turn to upperclassmen in their dorm for help. They have the Common Core for a reason. Everyone is doing the same thing and can help each other through it. Everyone struggles in at least one subject.</p>

<p>No one is denying your claim that your son is failing his classes. He may be. But it is not due to shortcomings of Harvey Mudd or oversight by the administration. It is due to a lack of effort. I know you wouldn’t want your son to have to take the blame for his own academic difficulties, but that is really the truth at this point. There are plenty of people who didn’t come from incredible high schools and still put in the work to succeed at Mudd.
That is simply not an excuse.</p>

<p>Sorry if this is harsh, but someone needed to put it out there.</p>

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<p>To aettsenoh
How dare you say that son has not tried to do his best this semester and done everything possible. So maybe my son is too stupid for Mudd. So maybe working day and night and going to every tutoring available is not enough for people like my son who are stupid by Mudd standards. Maybe my son spends too much time helping the kids doing even worse than him who have injured themselves or have had total meltdowns at this point. I am sorry that I have stupid son and I as a stupid parent let him go to Mudd. I am done arguing with you. Obviously, according to you, everyone is a perfect at Mudd and only the lazy fail. Not real. Some are just over their heads. My son is not actually failing. He is close but he is not over the line. I am hoping he will pass everything this semester, barely in some cases given his performance so far. Other students are over the line and will fail and have already been told where they can go to summer school and what grade they have to get if they want to come back next fall. None of them are lazy. Most of them are trying. All of them had good grades, good recommendations, and good scores on entry. The school is already thinking about bridge classes for the kids who came from bad schools next year. They are trying to address this problem in the future.</p>

<p>This is the American myth that hard work will overcome everything. Sometimes no amount of hard work will help.</p>

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<p>Well, then, if he is working his tail off, is in over his head, and getting nowhere – why don’t you tell him to look into transferring? Why are you complaining that he’s beating his head against the wall, but you’re not telling him to stop doing so? Your passivity is odd. You are concerned about your son – but you don’t like when posters contact the dean to try to identify / help you. You are concerned about your son being too “stupid” for Mudd – but you haven’t suggested to him to look into transferring. If indeed he isn’t cut out for Mudd – why would you want him to stay? Why not cut your losses?</p>

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<p>I was being rhetorical with the “too stupid.” He is probably just too unprepared compared to the kids with decent science and math backgrounds.
He has to finish out the semester this close to the end. If he flunks out, he would not be able to transfer anyway. I hear it takes a couple of years and few passed classes from a community college before anyone will take a chance on you again.</p>

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<p>I never said he was lazy. Harvey Mudd requires harder work than anyone did in high school, regardless of the high school they attended. Everyone works hard. I am sure your son works hard.</p>

<p>If he isn’t able to deal with that workload then perhaps he should look to transferring. And I do not think that only lazy people fail at Mudd. Obviously, that isn’t true. People who don’t make every effort to get help, every effort possible, when they need it could fail. People who try to get by with the amount of work they did in high school will fail.</p>

<p>It is no secret that Harvey Mudd College is extremely challenging. Yes, some people may have incredible AP or IB backgrounds from high school, but none of that is at the caliber of HMC. It’s an incredible academic undertaking.</p>

<p>This is the last comment I will make on this subject. I couldn’t stand to have all the people who may read this thread misled in this manner.</p>

<p>Bottom line: Mudd is hard, but it isn’t designed for failure. There are countless resources for academic and social help. Yes, some people fail. Some people fail at every school. The fact is that the average GPA is a 3.2. It is in no way impossible.</p>

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<p>At most colleges, the people who fail were partying, drinking, not doing any work or find out they suffer from a serious learning disability or mental condition. At Harvey Mudd, they fail because they aren’t smart enough or have a good enough math/science coursework in high school.</p>

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<p>BicoastalMamma,</p>

<p>I’m curious as to what your son wants to do at this point. I know you have ideas of what you think is best for him, obviously as any loving parent would. But I’d like to know if your son has told you what he wants to do? Does he want to stick it out? Does he want to transfer? Does he say he is unhappy at mudd? Does he say the professors are uncaring?</p>

<p>Also, as offending as it is that aettsenoh suggested your son may not be putting in the effort, it is hard to really know if your son is or not, because you aren’t there, ya know? Personally, I can honestly say I have told my parents I am working hard just to get them off my back, often times when I’m doing stuff to enjoy myself. That doesn’t mean I don’t work extremely hard at times though. I’m not accusing your son of doing this, but it is a possibility that you really can’t disprove.</p>

<p>Lastly, I think everyone has heard and respects your concern for your son. I really don’t think there is a need for you to keep bashing the quality of professors at mudd and the help from the peers when you really have no actual interaction with them. </p>

<p>And you do not have to be a genius to go to Mudd, or have a crazy good background. I talked to a student there who went to a school somewhat in my area, which I know does not have the best public schools. I asked her how she felt she was doing compared to those kids who came from a much better background, such as a school like exeter. She said it was hard sometimes at first (during the pass/fail semester), which she expected. However, that’s what the first semester is for- so everyone can be integrated. She does not feel there is really a difference at all now, and that she is even better at some subjects than they are. You can be perfectly successful at Mudd even without an amazing background or a perfect SAT score. This has been proven by many Mudd students.</p>

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<p>So he is a stupid idiot that can’t understand these perfectly easy questions on the tests. I guess that is the only explanation. What do you want from me? </p>

<p>Students are bashing their heads against walls in the dorms because they can’t do the work. I said the dean is trying to get him a tutor. Maybe, that will happen. Maybe, it will be too late by then. He first asked for help last November because we were told help was available. Maybe he is too exhausted to focus. Maybe, he is too shy and does not know how to get help. He said today he waited for an hour to talk to a professor during her office hours and she was talking to another professor about her personal life and then left without ever letting him ask one question after he waited a hour to talk to her. He was afraid to interrupt. Maybe, your friend has no problem interrupting professors’ conversations. That wasted an hour and half of his study time. It is ridiculous that you visitors to the campus think you know everything after your two day visit. My son hosted an admittee. He told him only good things.</p>

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<p>I’m sure your son is very smart, and no one is saying otherwise. Your sarcastic comments about your son must just be a “stupid idiot” is just rude.</p>

<p>I’d like you to tell us what your son personally wants to do? And is he happy there, or does he want to leave?</p>

<p>I don’t think I know everything in my two day visit. First off, I’m friends with some students there, and have been to Harvey Mudd several times before. That by no means makes me know everything either. However, I don’t think you could say you know everything either. I’m simply sharing my opinion, just as you are sharing yours.</p>

<p>Maybe your son is shy. That’s not a bad thing at all, and that doesn’t by any means make him less smart, but it definitely would make it harder to get help. Seeing as he hosted an admittee, it doesn’t seem like he’s too reserved. If he told the admittee student only good things, that does say something. If I hated mudd and truly believed as a student the things you are claiming your son believes, then I would have no qualms about telling an admittee the truth.</p>

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<p>My son believes he is really, really stupid. That is what he believes or at least that is what he tells me. He believes he will never be able to do the work he would like to do. He was so excited to go to Mudd. His head was filled with all kinds of alternative energy ideas when he went there. He now believes that if he is very lucky he will eventually attend some college somewhere and end up teaching junior high school math incompetently and bitterly if he is lucky enough to ever get a job. He may get to continue the legacy of bad urban school teachers. That is what his experience at Mudd has taught him. I don’t really know what he told the admittee. I just made that up. I am too depressed to care anymore. You have no idea how hard he worked in high school to get into a good college. You have no idea how hard he worked through the illnesses last year and how much he has tries to help the other failing students in his class. He has a really good heart and is a really hard worker. Mostly, he is just frightened and anxious.</p>