<p>SWDY, At times, that is not how the court system works. </p>
<p>For example, there are people on death row that should not be on death row. </p>
<p>Was the first man mentioned raped?
Not according one poster because it’s just drunk sex…and this one poster is pretty emphatic the done one enjoyed it. And there’s only a 1-2% chance the doer is a sociopath but most guys aren’t so what the heck. Maybe it didn’t happen. And so on. Sad.</p>
<p>Then we get this notion the college shouldn’t proceed, hmm. But the college is still a community and it needs to respond. </p>
<p>Then we get *if the TA admitted to the sex, he would lose his job. * AS IF he’s going to admit. Meanwhile, awc’s male advocacy group would tell him not to. So? But anyway, Tatin was thinking of a grad student and that somehow changes it?</p>
<p>Pizzagirl #1973: Agree that many girls would not necessarily want to ruin the boy’s life and get him expelled. That seems to jive with what support groups and Dean Eramo are saying: the women want acknowledgement of their feelings and that they were violated and that there should be some form of punishment, but not necessarily life-altering consequences. Many women who have not been victims don’t seem to think that is enough. I also think this would be true more in the case of rapes that are less violent and, as you said, where the woman may feel like she didn’t give completely clear signals. Not sure where that line falls and therein is what makes all of this so very difficult. </p>
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<p>Who is this “we” you are speaking of? I do not agree to any such thing. When I say “If she can’t consent, she didn’t consent,” I meant that if she was physically incapable of consenting, because for example she was unconscious, then we know that she didn’t consent. I meant it in the same sense that we’d use if the theory of someone’s innocence was that the victim picked up a one ton vehicle and threw it-- the victim can’t have picked up the vehicle, so they didn’t pick up the vehicle.</p>
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<p>By hypothesis, the school believes by clear and convincing evidence that the TA raped me. They should expel him. The University of Fang shouldn’t be keeping known rapists on campus.</p>
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<p>Because clear and convincing evidence is not the same as evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not rocket science.</p>
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<p>You can’t know. He said, she said. Assume both are saying the other party consented and they didn’t. But they were silent throughout the act. You are the lone member of the college tribunal. What do you do?</p>
<p>I saw you responded with some clarifying hypotheticals. But you can’t have the benefit of that in deciding your case. There was no one else present, so it is he said she said. Let’s hear your answer. By the way, if the girl accuses, my bet is the boy is hosed as he didn’t get a verbal yes.</p>
<p>By the way, in your hypotheticals, in my experience #1 and #2 is something I never witnessed but I am sure it happens. You gave the example of this small town. You concluded that since in that small town there are a bunch of neanderthals, there is rape culture in the USA. I am disappointed. That extrapolation made absolutely no sense to me. I can easily go to a town that houses a cult and claim that there is a cult culture in the USA.</p>
<p>Also by your hypotheticals, in #3 if the girl accuses the boy of rape the boy’s rear end will be toast under the new system. That’s precisely why I got so upset, as case #3 is pretty common. In fact FAR FAR more common than sober sex in my experience.</p>
<p>One other note, case #3 often leads to one of cases #1 or #2 when one party passes out but the other doesn’t realize it. To call that rape in my mind is ludicrous. I would like to hear your opinion.</p>
<p>And you know CF, even if you got overpowered and there were not injuries, if when he let you up you ran crying and screaming from the room straight to the RA, or police that would have helped your case. Instantaneous disgust is very convincing verses waiting. (And I do understand the issues of shame etc that victims feel and that is where the education of our young women is paramount)</p>
<p>Mamalumper, alcohol should be enough of a reason to close a frat for 2 months. </p>
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<p>Please understand the different standards of proof. </p>
<p>Roughly speaking, if you like probabilities, beyond a shadow of doubt is >99% certainty. Clear and convincing evidence is >75% certainty. Preponderance of the evidence is >50% certainty, a low bar.</p>
<p>SoWhat, in your examples are you asking whether rape occurred, or whether rape can be proved?</p>
<p>If alcohol alone would shut down an organization for two months, I wonder how many would be left standing at UVA. Not many. If Sullivan’s serious about alcohol abuse on grounds, she needs to broaden her horizons and paint a bit more evenly with her brush. </p>
<p>Another case a prosecutor chose not to pursue.</p>
<p><a href=“Gore Was Accused of Sexual Advances - The New York Times”>Gore Was Accused of Sexual Advances - The New York Times;
<p>If “she said” was all it took, a whole lot of men would be in prison.</p>
<p>I disagree, but then I don’t agree with the drinking age of 21 either though. (An argument for another thread) But alcohol is not why they are shut down and I can see why they are upset. Being shut down in this manor also continues to further the connotation that they are all somehow rapists or responsible for rapes. </p>
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<p>This is hilarious-- even when I put up a hypothetical you can’t discuss the hypothetical case without blaming the hypothetical victim.</p>
<p>Any chance we can get away from the prurient speculation, which only serves to minimize? Or at least, recognize this intent to do a little reductio ad absurdam to achieve the same?</p>
<p>There’s been a cycle of, “well, what if it’s this scenario?” And followed by another, a string of them. To what end? We can choose not to get sucked into some of this. </p>
<p>Who here has ever been to a UVA fat party?</p>
<p>“Pizzagirl #1973: Agree that many girls would not necessarily want to ruin the boy’s life and get him expelled. That seems to jive with what support groups and Dean Eramo are saying: the women want acknowledgement of their feelings and that they were violated and that there should be some form of punishment, but not necessarily life-altering consequences.” </p>
<p>This should be up to the victim and is very understandable.</p>
<p>So let’s propose this. If you want conviction or expulsion (at least for a first time offender), then that’s up to the cops/courts. Period. </p>
<p>If you want something less than that, then a college proceeding is an available option. The college proceeding may be less daunting and cumbersome than a criminal proceeding. But the college proceeding will not result in a expulsion (at least for a first time offender) or an adjudication of rape. </p>
<p>You can make that decision later. But if you don’t go to the cops/hospital right now, you likely lose the conviction/expulsion option.</p>
<p>I’d be fine with a school telling that to my daughter. Or my son being at that same school.</p>
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<p>Ah, so your basic point is, use civil court standards in university tribunals? Is that it?</p>
<p>By the way, in the example your gave, I still don’t see how you meet civil court standards.</p>
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<p>If the University of Fang goes by “beliefs”, then the University of Fang will get sued.</p>
<p>Who here has ever been to law school?</p>
<p>You conveniently left off a very significant part of what I said to further your argument that is not playing fair CF</p>
<p>“And you know CF, even if you got overpowered and there were not injuries, if when he let you up you ran crying and screaming from the room straight to the RA, or police that would have helped your case. Instantaneous disgust is very convincing verses waiting. (And I do understand the issues of shame etc that victims feel and that is where the education of our young women is paramount)”</p>