All UVa frats on suspension

Parents Forum
2541

<p>So few end up with convictions because the guys take a plea rather than risk putting their fate in the hands of a jury or god forbid they draw a female judge. </p>

<p>Truth of the matter is that these university tribunals were set up BY and FOR men. The purpose was to keep young affluent college males out of the criminal justice system where the stakes are very, very high. And don’t forget you can’t keep women off the juries or off the bench. And felony convictions follow you for life. It’s called risk management. </p>

2542

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<p>Love this…al2simon.</p>

2543

<p>^^^
And thats why for my D I wold not go near a tribunal but for my S……………….</p>

2544

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<p>The female is the accuser; she does not need a defense attorney, which is what I was talking about, i.e., the accused.</p>

<p>As for the females who allege rape, you have been part of several of these conversations and both I and momofthreeboys have been saying that all females should be filing a police report and thus getting the legal ball rolling. That is the first step. </p>

<p>It is up to the female to get an attorney if she wants, but please note that even posters on here tell them the police and legal system do not help and so these females go to administrators instead. </p>

<p>If it were my daughter accusing someone, she would be filing a police report, investigation will get rolling, she would have a lawyer in 15 minutes, filing a restraining order based on her initial report, and thereby forcing the male to get a lawyer and respond. </p>

<p>Would not waste time with college tribunals and darn sure would not tell her the police are no good and to report to the dean instead. She will report to the dean after the police and lawyer have been dealt with. And it may turn out the lawyer might say not to talk the administrators as well, as they are clueless.</p>

2545

<p>There are women who go to the police and nothing is done…even after rape kits are done…</p>

<p>The FSU story is not an outlier.</p>

<p>As somebody with means, I am sure your daughter would have a better chance of getting heard. </p>

2546

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<p>Let’s get the stats right here.</p>

<p>Of 100 rape complaints made to the cops</p>

<p>1) 25 leads to an arrest
2) 20 gets prosecuted
3) 10 leads to a felony conviction</p>

<p>So, why exactly wouldn’t someone accused of rape want the cops to handle it? The cops are doing pretty well sorting out which cases make sense to bring to trial, and even then 50% of trials end in acquital.</p>

<p><a href=“The Criminal Justice System: Statistics | RAINN”>https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Reality is, if you want both your son and daughter to get justice, you should just do the reverse.</p>

2547

<p>You bet it’s called risk management and I’ve made absolutely sure my kids understand risk management in all aspects of their life. Risk management does not mean that you are so paralyzed you fear doing anything it means go in with eyes wide open, minimize your risk and know what to do if you get in trouble - doesn’t matter if it’s participating in a high risk sport, driving cross country for the first time, heading to college and dealing with advisers, professors. TAs and deans (be polite but be firm if you want something) drinking underage or getting into relationships. Don’t let people railroad you into something you don’t want to do. I’ve always believed if you treat them like adults more often than not they will behave like an adult or at least an adult in their 20s. If you do everything for them they will let you do everything for them and behave like children (who you do everything for because you have to). That’s my philosophy on parental risk management and really when you are spending the kind of money we are all spending on “college” there is risk for kids and risk for parents. You bet I would totally be “in” if i thought my kids were being railroaded by a college that is sending me (no aid) tuition invoices on a regular basis. If I didn’t have personal risk (losing all the money I’d spent), I’d have no need to be involved. If you’ve got skin in the game you’ve got certain rights to protect your skin - both kids/students and the people paying the invoices. Most of the time I just leave them alone :slight_smile: and they text or call when they want to talk. </p>

2548

<p>From the NY Times story about James Winston…another case…</p>

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[quote]
Early last October, a 19-year-old Florida State student was studying on a Saturday night while her roommates went drinking. She said they returned drunk, and a roommate’s former boyfriend, also a student, raped her in her room.</p>

<p>The student reported the encounter to the Tallahassee police. The episode had nothing to do with Mr. Winston, but it, too, raised questions about how the city police deal with rape accusations. The police response was so inappropriate, according to the father, that later on, in a complaint filed with the police, he compared it to the Winston inquiry, which had recently drawn criticism in the news media.</p>

<p>The father, a part-time deputy sheriff in another county, said he was away on business when he called his daughter and found her crying and confused. With prodding, she disclosed that she had just spoken to the police about “a situation,” but would say no more. An officer had told her that “it might be better not to inform me,” her father said.</p>

<p>Alarmed, he asked his wife to call. She did, and their daughter said she had been raped. The mother and a family friend, also a law enforcement officer, immediately drove more than two hours to Tallahassee. They found the daughter with what appeared to be choke marks on her neck.</p>

<p>According to the father, a Tallahassee police officer named Christopher Pate characterized the young woman as confused and having had a hard time communicating. “Why was I not given an advocate to speak with?” his daughter said in a complaint she filed later with the police. “I was raped and was stressed and scared.”</p>

2549

<p>There is so much here…</p>

<p><a href=“Errors in Inquiry on Rape Allegations Against FSU’s Jameis Winston - The New York Times”>Errors in Inquiry on Rape Allegations Against FSU’s Jameis Winston - The New York Times;

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2550

<p>If I had a daughter my advice would not change except - go to the police and file a report (get a restraining order etc.), get a lawyer, tell the college, record any conversations with the college, start counseling etc. One difference I’d probably never let my daughter get counseling at the college, I’d probably send her to someone in the college town outside the college system.</p>

2551

<p>SoWhat I am not going to argue statistics with you. You can recommend whatever you like to your progeny, but as an attorney the last place I would ever want my teenage son if he was accused of rape was the criminal justice system. The stakes are too high and the outcomes too unpredictable. </p>

2552

<p>And it appears that the whole university system in the U.S. agrees with me. But hey, do it your way.</p>

2553

<p>Reading all these stories and researching all the facts, my perspectives have changed a bit. </p>

<p>If I were a woman and afraid of rape, I would want the Yes means Yes law and college kangaroo courts. This is why. There is a simple physical imbalance between men and women. Men CAN overpower women in most cases. So, whenever a woman is choosing to have sex with a man, she is basically running odds in her head, will this dude rape me?</p>

<p>That can’t be a good feeling. That’s a serious power imbalance in a relationship. I don’t know how women deal with that. If I were a woman, I would want a counterbalance to it. And that’s where Yes means Yes and kangaroo courts come in. Now all men who are subject to the law and the kangaroo courts have to be running odds in their head, will this dudette screw me over and file rape charges even if I am innocent? </p>

<p>This can’t be a good feeling either. If I were subject to it, I simply wouldn’t have sex. But fear balances fear, and now you will have a more balanced relationship, if only sexless.</p>

<p>Also, if I were a woman who really was raped (and of course many women do get raped), I would never go to the cops, and would always go to the kangaroo courts. My chance of getting justice is far higher there. Yes, there will be other women who were not raped but will file cases and ruin the lives of some men, but the way I would rationalize it is this: at least I got my justice, and the other men shouldn’t have had sex in the first place. They wouldn’t have died if they never got off, now would they? They just chose the wrong woman to sleep with, and that’s their problem as long as I get my justice.</p>

<p>But on the other hand if I were a man who was falsely accused of rape (and of course many men do get false accused of rape), I would always prefer that the woman goes to the cops and the criminal justice system. My chance of getting justice is far higher there. Yes, there will be other men who did rape a woman but got away with it because the cops blew it or the criminal justice standards are too high, but the way I would rationalize it is this: at least I got my justice, and those women shouldn’t have had sex in the first place. They wouldn’t have died if they never got off, now would they? They just chose the wrong man to sleep with, and that’s their problem as long as I get my justice.</p>

<p>This is the current thinking from both sides. Both sides are willing to have some collateral damage happen as long as they get theirs. It’s just a matter of which side of the line they are on.</p>

<p>Given that, I do not blame rape victim advocates for wanting Yes means Yes and kangaroo courts in colleges. If I were a woman at risk of getting raped, I would want the same.</p>

<p>What I hope, however, is that rape victim advocates also get the other side. If they were a man at risk of falsely being accused of rape, what would they want? I bet it would be No means No and the regular criminal justice system.</p>

<p>Once we understand each other, we can perhaps have a more civil and rational discussion, eh?</p>

2554

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<p>No one likes facts. :-(</p>

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<p>Would you at least want the tribunals to use due process?</p>

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<p>Not really. No univesity wanted to change its process. If you get your facts straight, which I know you don’t care for, you prefer to rely on your gut instead, you will find that the OCR had to get the universities kicking and dragging to the current standard, under the threat of losing Federal funding.</p>

2555

<p>Yes means yes doesn’t harm you legally unless there are witnesses…</p>

<p>Nobody wants kangaroo courts here.</p>

<p>I have personally dealt with a kangaroo court, have you?</p>

<p>Don’t talk nonsense…</p>

2556

<p>Lots of room for differences of opinion on this thread, but innocent or guilty you would have to be insane to subject yourself to criminal prosecution for felony rape instead of a campus hearing. Maybe if you had videotape of you being in another country, a negative DNA test, AND a sworn affidavit from the Pope as an alibi …</p>

2557

<p>Most of the cases college tribunals are handling are not felony rape and no-one who wants an apology is going to the police because they’ll be sending her home unhappy. I think some of us have confused some of these young women.</p>

2558

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<p>Do we know if that is the case? I asked this seriously and without being facetious. I have no knowledge to base it on, but I would guess that there is nothing to indicate why the person was expelled. </p>

2559

<p>From what I have read, the disciplinary cause for which the student was expelled is clearly written in the school records.</p>

2560

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<p>When she chooses to have sex with a man, the dude is not going to rape her because she has already consented. The problem is whenever she is NOT choosing to have sex with a man, she is running odds in her head, will this dude rape me?</p>