<p>In this thread, by far the best piece of advocacy for each side’s positions are the most extreme posters from the other side.</p>
<p>The college tribunal idea may be a terrible idea. Obviously local police don’t have a great track record either. </p>
<p>I am glad this woman is getting another shot. With evidence destroyed, we are less likely to ever find out the truth.</p>
<p>The reason northwesty’s examples don’t fly is because the school has no jurisdiction over the other cases.
If FSU wants government support, it comes with strings attached. Don’t take the taxpayer money. </p>
<p>Do we want to send up more tribunals? </p>
<p>A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and a federally mandated personal tribunal for all accusers, outside of the criminal justice system, with preponderance of evidence as the standard, with no representation allowed for the accused, fact finding and cross examination not allowed as well, and this for all kids, and not just college kids. If you want to be a citizen of the USA, it comes with strings attached. Don’t like it? Go to <insert foreign="" country="" here="">.</insert></p>
<p>Sometimes, the Federal Govt is wrong. It’s not always unfettered Govt my-way-or-the-highway. A few Title IX lawsuits by the accused will fix this mess, fast.</p>
<p>Again, parents of boys in college or pre-college, write to your representatives to roll these tribunals back.</p>
<p>My son graduated. I would never write a letter for this. I would like to think if my son wanted sex, he could find a willing and able partner who wasn’t almost comatose. </p>
<p>I’m not sure why the “college tribunal” thing is that controversial. Assume you setup an after-school enrichment program to teach kids algebra. One kid yells non-stop during class, runs around, etc. Basically makes it impossible to teach. You try everything - ask him to stop, give him a timeout, call his parents, but nothing works. What do you do? Kick him out. Whether a crime was committed or not is not relevant (if a serious crime was committed, maybe you should be required to report it to the police. But that’s a different issue with different laws that govern.)</p>
<p>As your program gets bigger, your lawyer tells you that you should have a written policy that outlines what behaviors get students kicked out. So that your decisions aren’t made just on the basis of your own whims, you have a hearing to determine if a student should be kicked out. At the core, this is all “college tribunals” are.</p>
<p>For a college not to have this is silly. Attacking the existence of these hearings seems misplaced. The question is - are they fairly adjudicating reasonable policies? </p>
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<p>Of course, I would. But, best to compare apples to apples. </p>
<p>My marketeers are all advocates for my products. However, the exception is my marketers are not allowed to say things that are not verifiable and flat out not true statistically… (See paragraph 4)</p>
<p>And note that I said “too many” advocates, not all. Ok, maybe “too many” was too strong a term, but the point is there are tons of them. I get emails from groups asking for money every day, and 90%+ include false info and non-sequitors etc. </p>
<p>The difference is as a private company I can get sued and lose my shirt for false advertising, and pay out tons of money and share holders would get mad as hell etc. So my marketeers cannot do 99% of what theses advocacy groups do. Given that my industry is highly regulated, what we do is vetted to high heaven. So I am on firm ground on what we say to the public. I wonder what would happen to all these statement and stats if these advocacy groups were regulated under the same truth in advertising laws and rules that I am? Hum…</p>
<p>My problem is false is false, and I am just tired of being told false stats etc .and then the argument switched that there is a problem anyway so please ignore what I told you. I am sick of it. </p>
<p>And I am part of a couple advocacy groups, but being on their boards, I hold them accountable for what they say and do.</p>
<p>People may call that flaming, but I call that calling them out and making them come clean. Here is a novel idea, stop making stuff up and no one would even think of flaming them, if you want to call it that. Interesting how people see get mad when you ask a group to be honest about what they are saying. Hum… such people are a little biased maybe?</p>
<p>EDIT: My flame comment is not directed at you. I know you are not mad, just sticking up for them. I am talking about people who are so invested they forget to check their numbers before putting out the door. </p>
<p>Simon, That you compare getting kicked out of an after school enrichment program with getting kicked out of college with a stamp on your record that you are a sex offender … wow, man!</p>
<p>I am curious why so many of the men on this board are so quick to indict the university tribunal system as imperfect as it clearly is??? Kind of seems counter-intuitive to me. </p>
<p>I would clearly direct my own D right to the police department to file a criminal complaint and would prosecute aggressively. But I also have a son and like most mothers I would want to make the best out of a bad situation. If he ever had the misfortune to become entangled in a sexual assault claim, I think I would be praying that the girl chose the university tribunal as the venue for adjudication. And that would be especially true if after a frank discussion with my son, I concluded that the facts were hazy at best. If I had the choice of the punishment being an expulsion/year off from college or a jail sentence, I know which one I would pick. Juries and judges can be very unpredictable and some states have very harsh sentencing guidelines for rape. </p>
<p>Of the few rape cases that ever make into the criminal justice system, why do you think it is that the vast, vast majority of men take a plea bargain before any trial takes place?</p>
<p>I was trying to explain why the attacks on the existence of hearings by colleges is misplaced and trying to use an example people could see themselves in instead of a large institution like a university.
Not trying to say the two offenses are comparable, either from the perpetrator’s perspective or the victim’s.</p>
<p>I could just as easily turn your phrasing around and say that you are comparing the harm in leaving a noisy student in class with the harm in leaving a rapist free to wander a college campus</p>
<p>And for the record I have no problem kicking someone out of college with a stamp on their record if they in fact are guilty of a crime like rape or attempted rape.</p>
<p>Also, a student can appeal the decision to a real court if they feel wronged. I certainly want to minimize the number of mistakes that are made and I hope if they are innocent they get justice. Unfortunately, no system is perfect.</p>
<p>Some of the public stories about the universities tribunals don’t read too well. Columbia, Michigan… Those stories on their face look bad. Obviously, we don’t have all the facts. Maybe they are outliers. I have my doubts.</p>
<p>My daughter went to Michigan. If I remember correctly, (I am 99 percent sure ) the school admitted there were sexual assaults. The school talked about the blue lights, calling for rides, walking with a friend …</p>
<p>I like Michigan. I am not trashing the school. </p>
<p>When I talk about Columbia, I am not trashing that school either. :)</p>
<p>Looks like they can do better dealing with this tough issue.</p>
<p>HarvestMoon1, such a small amount of rapes end up with convictions, maybe that is why some prefer the police. I think I would prefer the tribunals.</p>
<p>Some of the public stories about the universities tribunals don’t read too well. Columbia, Michigan… Those stories on their face look bad. Obviously, we don’t have all the facts. Maybe they are outliers. I have my doubts.</p>
<p>My daughter went to Michigan. If I remember correctly, the school admitted there were sexual assaults. The school talked about the blue lights, calling for rides, walking with a friend …</p>
<p>I like Michigan. I am not trashing the school. </p>
<p>When I talk about Columbia, I am not trashing that school either. :)</p>
<p>Looks like they can do better dealing with this tough issue.</p>
<p>HarvestMoon1, such a small amount of rapes end up with convictions, maybe that is why some prefer the police. I think I would prefer the tribunals.</p>
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<p>Because there is no due process. Bring back the old standard of clear and convincing and bring back due process, legal representation, allow cross examination, allow fact finding, all that good stuff, and tribunals are fine! They were fine before except they never found anyone guilty of rape. That’s because with due process it is incredibly hard to get a rape conviction.</p>
<p>Because, if people push back, this new standard CAN AND WILL be rolled back.</p>
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<p>Because 1) those men are overwhelming poor, uneducated, railroaded by the cops, don’t know their options, and can’t do proper risk assessment of the various options available to them and 2) they don’t have proper representation that can do it for them because they can’t afford representation.</p>
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<p>No, you can’t. Because it was your far out example, not mine.</p>
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<p>Neither do I. But I want the courts to decide, not some random tribunal.</p>
<p>Fair point on the issue of the example. Not right for me to try to put words in your mouth.</p>
<p>Fair point on the issue of the example. Not right for me to try to put words in your mouth. Sorry.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately there are no good old days to return to, in many cases. Fact finding, cross examination, due process, legal representation-- these have been absent for many of the tribunals all along.</p>
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<p>And this is why my counsel does pro bono work. None of the people he helps can afford his $800/hr rate. And he just hates it that there are cases where 3 to 5 hours of the right work can get a railroaded person off the hook, but they have no one. No plea bargaining either. He has a take no prisioners approach. </p>
<p>Anytime you are accused of something that has ramifications - call the lawyer first and then hit record on your phone before you say one word other than “hello”. Whether I “prefer” the criminal system or the college system if one of the males in my family was accused, I’d choose a system with due process. But remember girls can choose one, both or neither. If a girl waited weeks, months, years to report and my son was sitting on a text message asking if he had a condom or a text message from his suite mate telling him he’s making too much noise or any evidence I’d hire two lawyers - one to support the son through whatever fallout was about to occur and one to walk us through a restraining orders to ensure the young woman stays away from the son and his name is never uttered or one lawyer that cold handle everything. But heck yes I’d lawyer up - in a NY moment. </p>
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<p>All male college students should learn this, given the current climate. Would not even talk to administrators or anything. The key is to come out the gate instantly and make everyone put up or shut up and not even be allowed to utter an innuendo. Not hard to do, and I am sure it has been done and is being done. It is the unfortunate guys (and their families) who did not know what to do who are getting the hammer on their heads. </p>
<p>But not the girls who are raped…</p>
<p>The Florida State case is unreal…</p>
<p>The bar had 30 video cameras… One of the football players taped part of the act…</p>
<p>Lost!</p>