"You could also view this in the context of diversity: UVA is remarkably non-diverse compared to the state of Virginia:
(20% African-Americans in the state, 6% African-Americans at UVA) "
This is typical everywhere. Please show me a selective state flagship where the AA enrollment is the same as the overall AA population.
UNC/CH 11% AA enrollment; state of NC 22%.
UM Ann Arbor 6%; state of Michigan 14.2%
FYI, UVA’s freshman undergrad AA enrollment number is usually about 9% year in year out.
I have been persuaded that the actual majority of cases in which assault is alleged involve men who are serial offenders. They may have been drinking, but they are not intoxicated in the way you mean. These are individuals who exploit the intoxication of women in order to sexually exploit them. Believe me, I am also concerned about the “both are drunk” situation, but I’ve come around to the belief that those situations are in the minority (that is, in terms of situations that give rise to complaints.)
But if this is the case, will the new rules put a damper on the activities of these serial offenders? I’m not sure. As suggested above, they may avoid the restrictions by walking her to her own room.
Um, talk about living in lala land, awcntdb . . . .
How, exactly, does your son have access to details about every sexual assault complaint at his school? And how does it happen that he, personally, saw (and heard!) the people involved in as much as half of them close to the time when the assault supposedly occurred? How is that remotely credible? I suppose maybe, if he goes to Deep Springs, and there are 40 kids at the entire college, and they do everything together, and there have been two cases of alleged sexual assault, and he witnessed the prelude to one of them . . . But then it’s awfully hard to generalize from that.
More importantly, there’s an important distinction between “chasing the guy” and consenting to sex (or, as in some cases, consenting to certain types of sex). Girls have chased guys for centuries without having sex with every one they caught. At least not right away. And they are allowed to chase, catch, think better of it, and throw the fish back in the sea. There is – or at least used to be – a nasty name for women who did that too much . . . but the very term and its common usage indicated that everyone understood that there was a meaningful difference between teasing and saying yes. There still is.
We lala-land-living adults discussed this at some length hundreds of pages ago. Of course this happens. The question is, how often does it result in a claim of rape? The answer clearly isn’t “never” – see the lawsuit involving Occidental College – but it’s also not something that happens in a large percentage of cases.
What in the world makes you think that the rest of us are unfamiliar with remorse about sex, especially among 18-22 year-olds? Is that credible? When do we get to think you are making sense?
Ah, but that’s exactly what a number of the people who have attempted to study campus sexual assault claim: that most of it is predatory, non-intoxicated males “seducing” drunk females, and not caring a lot whether the women actually get seduced.
Again, exactly how many cases has he seen, and how does he know this? How sober is he while he is doing all this precise observation?
This is just about 180 degrees from the truth in the United States.
First off, who is “allowing” consumption of alcohol, by body weight or otherwise? Mostly these are choices the kids are making. More importantly, it may well be possible to change people’s behaviors, both how much they drink, and what they do when they are drunk. For example, I think safe sex practices are pretty common even among drunk kids, much more than 20 years ago, even if they aren’t perfect in every case.
I will take my version of reality over yours or your son’s any day.
I’m not sure about whether the majority of assaulters are serial offenders. The evidence for that claim is not ironclad. But let’s say it’s true. Then the sober monitors might in some cases notice the serial rapist leading the extremely drunk woman out of the party, and quietly intervene to get her to a college shuttle or something safe. Or maybe not, maybe that’s an unrealistic hope.
"Many UVa people are from Virginia (68 percent, a LOT). "
That’s funny. And what would you expect? It’s a STATE school. Actually, there are many citizens of Virginia who think that figure is too low for instate students. There are many Virginia families every year who are disappointed when their child is not accepted to the flagship university.
Here’s a [new study]( http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vio.2014.0022) on rape attitudes among college men. It’s small, only 86 men, at one particular unnamed college campus. What I find disturbing about this particular study is that almost a third of the men say that they would coerce a woman to sexual intercourse she did not want, if “no one would ever know and there would be no consequence” for him. Only half of the guys who would force a woman to have sexual intercourse said that they would rape a woman. The other half (a sixth of the total) said they’d force a woman to have sexual intercourse, but wouldn’t rape her.
Hmm. What is the definition of the word rape, again?
Just a reminder about RAINN’s published statistics: 60% of rapes occur in the victim’s residence, 30% at another residence, and 10% at a fraternity house.
So allowing a guy to walk you home may be the most dangerous choice you can make.
I don’t even think that the Occidental case is a situation where the young woman got drunk in order to get laid. She clearly got very drunk, very intentionally, but everything I’ve read suggests that she got drunk because she was a new freshman and wanted to get drunk, not so that she would be uninhibited enough to consent to sex. Clearly she did get drunk, and then she did consent to sex that she would not have consented to while sober, but that doesn’t mean we can conclude she intended to get drunk for that reason.
The rest of the post I Liked, and I wish I could Like it more than once. I’m going to quote these two snippets because they deserve to be repeated:
Obviously that are cases like that, and nobody would argue that it isn’t 1980 any more, but that is a severe overstatement IMO- and those college kids I know (I have 2 kids in large state schools and 1 step kid at another state U who share everything about themselves and what they see).
Anyway, it is obvious that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
I agree, to some degree, but this does not cover the other issues of drunk sex, which is what my DS sees tons of. I do think my DS is correct that the predator issue does not cover the flat-out drunk sex, toxic sex, and bad sex issue which he says really covers a lot of these new alleged assault cases, at least at his school.
Your arguments have been dead on that a good portion of this is a predator issue, not a mass behavior issue. Yet, all these types of solutions are meant for the mass market, as if all guys are predators and the policies hope to catch the few predators taking a drunk girl upstairs. I do not see the sense in that approach.
Does anyone really think a true predator is going to seek out his prey at a chaperoned party? No. All this has done is sent the predator elsewhere where the prey is drinking unchaperoned. Therefore, nothing will change based on this policy, just the scene.
To me, this is analogous to why there are extremely few home invasions in WY compared to Wash, DC. The perpetrator in WY knows he has a very high chance of being shot anther quickly, as compared to DC where there are major gun-control laws and really only the criminals have guns. DC is easy pickings.
This is no different now at UVA - the predators are going to avoid the chaperoned parties (e.g., WY) and go to the other party where the real drunk girls and undefended prey are (e.g., DC). And females who want to drink and who are prone to get into troublesome situations are going to go to those other parties.
But this still does not address the fact that a lot of drunk sex takes place that is then labeled rape days and weeks afterwards. Keep the alcohol flowing and nothing will change there either. I just do not see how this policy catches any predators or reduces drunk, toxic sex that is later called rape. Would be thrilled to be proved wrong.
Bottom line is if a female is drinking to the point of cannot think totally straight (that level of intoxication varies per individual - many not thinking straight people seem just fine), and she purposefully puts herself in position to be totally dependent on others for her safety, then bad things are going to happen somewhere down the road. That simple.
To teach a young female that being totally dependent on others for her personal safety is normal behavior just seems to be dropping the personal responsibility ball. Males are not think that their personal safety is the responsibility of others, and I do wonder why young females are being trained that it is smart position to put themselves at the mercy of others. I am talking about purposefully lowering and neglecting one’s own safety mechanisms. Just why young females think this is a brilliant thing to do befalls me.
In case the OP was serious about never having seen any evidence that frat members were more likely to rape:
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/oct/21/fraternities-and-campus-sexual-assault-problem/
http://www.academia.edu/3288958/Sorority_women_s_and_fraternity_men_s_rape_myth_acceptance_and_bystander_intervention_attitudes Please note especially the part entitled “Fraternity Culture.” Note that according to one study, sorority members are 74% more likely to be raped than female classmates who aren’t Greek. The probable explanation is that they socialize more frequently with frat members.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/09/opinion/foubert-fraternities-rape/ Part of the article states:
These are only the tip of the iceberg. Since 2007 there have been more studies that reached the same conclusion. Of course, we know, OP, all of them are wrong—your S knows more.
I am ashamed to say that there have been some awful rape stories coming out of my alma mater this year. The worst two involve frats. One of the victims was smart enough to get to a hospital as soon as she "sobered’ up. Yep, she was roofied. I’m sure the guys had a gazillion witnesses that she was totally willing.
@JHS re Post 3622
I like your post and the points it makes, as it illustrates the differences in viewpoints, as to the meaning of behavior.
Of course my DS’s observations are his, from his school. However, I trust his observations and deductions a whole lot more than the advocates who are NOT even at his school, but are making pontifications about what is going on there. Hum… Who might be more accurate, someone on the ground seeing it live or an advocate sitting in an office trying to shore up an agenda? Choose who you want to believe, just like I have.
And how is that working out for you?
At some point, hopefully, teaching a young female to control her destiny will be part of this equation rather than foolishly depending on others to get her out of a jam she purposefully and knowingly put herself in. If you cannot think straight, you cannot take good decisions. Not sure what is so difficult about that to understand.
Right. So if you couldn’t control yourself, the testosterone-laden animal that you are – it’s really the fault of the woman around you if you rape her, for being in your vicinity and having the appropriate female parts. It couldn’t possibly be your fault.
That line just cracked me up. I cannot wait till to show it to my DS, as he will fall over laughing. I guess snarky gossip functions as intellect in your world, and you could not be more wrong, again. Keep it up, you are batting zero.
My DS could not be further from me. He is teetotaler and goes out with one female at a time. The biggest difference is he is an athlete (not recruited, a walk-on), and he actually hates how much he gets accosted by females. He finds the entire party scene he is in rather mundane and avoids as much as he can. He is only describing his world and the issues he sees.
Me - a teetotaler? No. (Nothing like a nice Bordeaux) Athlete? Could not even think about it. (Do wine glass curls count?) Dated one girl at time? Not for the first two years, but never professed any love or anything of the sort.
However, I became “hitched” junior year and am still hitched to same hot babe. That is the one thing, like me, that I wish for my DS. If he falls that close to the tree that way, a hot babe, then great.
I honestly do not see anyone teaching young females " that being totally dependent on others for her personal safety is normal behavior." Actually quite to the contrary. When my D did a summer program last year on an urban campus over 60% of the girls brought mace or pepper spray along. I know that because during a safety talk the girls were informed it was not legal for them to carry it in that city. They all had to go to their rooms and turn it in if they had brought it along. D said more than half the girls had it. Most girls are very aware of the safety risks they face and are doing what they can to keep themselves safe. My D has pepper spray on her keychain and in her purse.
Having said that I will admit to begin less worried about personal safety when I am with my H or my S. I am barely 5’1 and my H is 6’3 and son is quickly approaching 6’ at 16. We have had many conversations with my D who starts college next Fall and she knows she has to look after herself. There are very few “dads” and “brothers” on college campuses who are going to make it their business to put her best interests first. She knows that and will act accordingly.
But apparently there are a few good guys left. 4 male engineering students have come up with a product called “Undercover Colors” - a nail polish that when a girls stirs her drink with her finger will change color if there are drugs present. We’ll be getting some of that if and when it becomes available.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nail-polish-may-help-detect-date-rape-drugs/
Yup sober brothers actively intervene ALL the time. People seem really interested in trying to get upstairs. So we literally have a gate we set up. If people are disruptive they get kicked out by sober brothers. If people are sick they get helped. Sober brothers walk people home. Sober brothers do anything needed, and we have alot more than three. Usually between 8-10.
@awcntdb As usual you don’t get it. I was referring to thinking that most women just throw themselves on guys all the time. Nobody said anything about drinking or dating habits.
Thanks, @TransferGopher. So the sober brothers are pretty busy at your parties. How many people would typically be at your parties? How many people would typically be ejected for misbehavior? Do party guests expect to be able to appeal to a sober brother for help? I’m trying to figure out whether most partygoers are happy to have sober brothers, or whether sober brothers are regarded as a nuisance.
I personally think the sober designee should be the frat’s elected leaders for their authority/standing and their continuing house responsibilities. (They could have a revolving schedule.) Not a few freshmen trying to tell their older brothers what not to do. But then again, if there is a problem in the first place, what says any of these more senior kids are going to be effective?
Sounds like the concept of “sober” members is not all that unusual, but with the exception of being the designated drivers and attempting to keep people from areas off limits, my guess is the designation is largely symbolic. No one is going to “solve” anything without addressing alcohol consumption at parties. I asked my son if the guys drink hard alcohol and wasn’t surprised at the answer. He said, of course we do shots, but mostly we drink beer. My son’s point is that girls for the very large part aren’t drinking beer so are getting drunker, faster and sometimes before they get to the house parties. No “sober designee” can do much about this unless they turn away people at the door and so far I don’t see colleges or frat/sorority organizations proposing a door breathalyzer for outsiders prior to entrance.