All UVa frats on suspension

Parents Forum
3641

Not UVA specific, but I read this today and it deals with the issue we have discussed before on these threads re: accused and/or convicted (in a college setting) men being able to transfer schools:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/08/university-oregon-lawsuit-sexual-assault_n_6440000.html

“The lawsuit, which names the university and basketball head coach Dana Altman, says the coach knew when he recruited player Brandon Austin that Austin had been suspended for sexual assault at Providence College in Rhode Island. The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court in Eugene by the female student under the pseudonym Jane Doe. She reported in March 2014 she was raped by Austin and fellow Oregon players Damyean Dotson and Dominic Artis.”

***There is also the fact Oregon knew of the accusation at their school but waited until after the NCAA tournament to investigate. And that ANOTHER school has since recruited Austin knowing of his record:

"Austin and a Providence teammate both were accused of sexually assaulting a female student at the school and were suspended in November 2013. While under suspension, Austin was recruited to Oregon. He was accused in March 2014 of gang-raping the Oregon student who filed the lawsuit, along with teammates Dotson and Artis. The players claimed it was consensual sex. Prosecutors declined to press charges, citing lack of evidence.

Oregon knew of the student’s gang rape allegation in March 2014, prior to the March Madness basketball tournament, but waited until May to begin an investigation. The school said the delay was requested by law enforcement. In June, the university found the three players responsible for sexual misconduct and suspended them for up to 10 years.

Austin was later recruited by Northwest Florida State College, which admitted knowing of his sexual assault history at two schools."

3642

I think there is some chance that restrictions like those at U.Va. might reduce assaults, including assaults by serial predators. I think these serial predators are opportunistic offenders, and if the opportunities are reduced, they may offend less.

I think these conversations tend to focus on the mutual “drunk sex” situation so much because it appears to many of us that there is a strong possibility of a miscarriage of justice in such cases. How to avoid that, while still protecting victims, is really hard.

I wonder if we might get better results by focusing more on measures that might deter the serial predator.

3643

It illustrates why these things need to be handled in criminal courts and not kept within a particular college setting. If the young men (man) in questions had been prosecuted and found guilty after the original allegations they would be in jail and not in college. Thanks for posting.

3644

^^^^
Unfortunately, criminal courts were not an option as prosecutors declined to press charges. What can be done? You might think including the suspension and the reason why on the transcript would deter another college from enrolling the student, but it didn’t stop Northwest Florida.

Mighty athletics trumps all, it seems.

3645

But what if they had been prosecuted and had been acquitted? This would be the result in criminal court of many of these cases because of the standard of proof and the proof problems that often exist in such cases. You might end up with an even more difficult situation–a person who has been suspended by a college, but acquitted in a court of law. He is going to say that he has been exonerated. What then?

3646

Re Post 3640

Legally, what occurred there is not surprising and really is exactly what should have happened. No one was convicted of anything, so why should that person’s life stop? I am not into punishing people by stopping their lives and livelihood based on an accusation. That is just a bit totalitarian for me.

This is no different than the Hannah issue at UVA. That murderer was allowed to rape and transfer with no problem and roamed the country for 15 years doing what he did. Should have been charged and prosecuted by the schools.

3647

This raises an interesting question. I have told my sons to always walk girls home for their safety. Not that my boys could physically protect them necessarily, but just their presence would be a deterrent. I tell my sons to always do this.

What do parents of girls recommend to their daughters. Should they accept the walk home?

3648

“Austin was later recruited by Northwest Florida State College, which admitted knowing of his sexual assault history at two schools.”

So how many allegations are enough?

The girl was crying.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/08/university-oregon-lawsuit-sexual-assault_n_6440000.html

Blamed the victim… wow!

The argument from the alleged assailants sounds like…

"We didn’t know we raped her until we raped her. "

Maybe murderers can say the following and get away with it.

“We didn’t know we killed her until she was dead.”

3649

Those selective quotes may not be fair to that prosecutor. He may be quite right that he would be unable to obtain a conviction based on the evidence available, including the things he lists, if the defense is consent. Would you prefer that he pursue prosecutions that he can’t win, or that he not tell the truth?

3650

If you back it up two steps what could have changed? She got herself into a situation that she couldn’t control it sounds like. So where is the responsibility? I’m not willing to abdicate my personal responsibility to another person and if I’m violated through no fault of my own then certainly I’m turning to our legal system good or not so good. We’re stuck on this point as many in society are stuck on this point. Our criminal courts are there to determine criminal guilt. If they can’t do that and we as a society determine it is best that women need legal protection then we need to determine what needs to change in society as a whole - not simply kids on a college campus. Frankly I’m not willing to abdicate my responsibility for my body to politics or if I were in college to a bunch of sober brothers in a frat house.

3651

Hunt, highlighting those quotes may not be fair but the comments don’t sound good.

And blaming the victim?

That has to stop.

If those quotes are the truth, then the criminal justice system doesn’t work.

The sexual history of the girl who was raped is held against her.

The fact that there were prior allegations against the alleged assaulters can’t be used against them?

Hmmm.

And we have a third school recruiting… Geez.

Luckily, the Oregon case is a civil case and this girl is going to receive a lot of money…

She was CRYING!

3652

I know what you are trying to say here, but this is not an argument really; it is simply easy pickings for justification of lowering standards. Hindsight is 20-20 and additional assaults occuring is not something you could have known at the time. The other real possibility was they could have been tried and acquitted because they were innocent.

It is really just rationalization when one goes back and finds cases where someone may have been stopped if lower standards were used, as one can find those examples in all category of crime cases. However, there is no free lunch. The other effect of such a lowering standards approach is that innocents could easily be found guilty and innocents can be railroaded by the lower standards.

And these lower standards are in place only because of an attempt NOT to criminally charge an accused and take the risk in criminal court, i.e., the exact same risk that every other accuser of a crime takes. That strikes many as trying to rig the system, and they are coming to the conclusion that it is a bit under-handed. Such a system will fail because, ultimately, if a system is not trusted, it will fail.

3653

Actually, this is extremely believable.

Women do have the right to change their minds. To assume, the female was never consensually participating at all is not something you could know and is pure assumption.

There are many cases already discussed on similar threads where the female jumped in bed naked with a guy, asked for a condom etc., and then said she changed her mind and later accused the male of rape. Therefore, it is very believable that something that started out as consensual was later alleged to be rape.

In fact, I would say that this is exact the issue with the fuzziness with a majority of these allegations; many are not cases of what people think of (as seen on TV), as forcible rape, but initial consensual situations gone awry in terms of what the male and female think they are agreeing to.

3654

I can only speak for sons. I said this before and got lampooned, but the more correct my DS is turning out to be.

He flat-out refuses to walk any intoxicated female home, and he avoids even being alone with an intoxicated female. In such a situation, he just leaves the room. He wants nothing to do with them.

In a couple cases, he simply called security and waited till they arrived to take the female home. One girl passed out in front of him, and he did not even touch her to help her up because he assessed it was not worth the risk of her saying later that he touched her against her will, even if it was to help her. She was still breathing so he just sat there, a distance away, until security came.

3655

“Until we raped her”.

3656

" So allowing a guy to walk you home may be the most dangerous choice you can make."

Yes, it was very dangerous for me as I was almost raped.

Again with the “blaming the victim” terminology.

So we don’t blame people who die in a survivable car crash who weren’t wearing their seat belt?

Or a woman who has a lot of family support but still stays in an abusive relationship?

Or a girl who gets pregnant because she didn’t think you could “the first time”?

“blame” is such a loaded word. Do we blame a kid who gets into a car with a stranger? Or a kid who is riding a skateboard on a railing?

It is one of the most stupid things I have ever done in my life to accept an offer to walk me home from a frat party, from a guy I had met within the last hour, who I had spoken to for perhaps 15 minutes in a crowded room, with neither person exchanging any semi-romantic comment or banter. Then again, it was also one of the most stupid things in my life that I did before that, drank way too much grain punch without contemplating the delay in action of drunkeness.

You can say if I was raped, it would not have been my fault, but you can also say that NO ONE is going to tell their daughter that drinking a lot of grain punch in a short time without eating is okay, and now NO ONE is going to tell their daughter that being walked home by a kind stranger (see Blanche duBois) is okay. I certainly already was on board with the latter.

Kids do stupid stuff. As parents, we hope to educate them as to what is merely stupid and what can be tragically or fatally stupid. I probably had enough alcohol that night to kill myself, and no, I didn’t get sick and no, I didn’t get a hangover. The almost getting raped part was a detail to the almost dying from alcohol poisoning part.

Education about alcohol, appropriate punishment for alcohol-related offenses, and even things like on-campus college-sponsored alcohol-free parties can help.

But ignoring that the actions of a victim can affect the outcome is delusional. What if Batman’s mom and dad weren’t walking in an alley with him after that movie? Did they really need to walk in an alley?

3657

You are taking a statement of an after the fact acknowledgement as evidence that it was something done with forethought.

It is very possible that they later realized that they raped her, but under the initial circumstances it was not viewed or even thought of or seen by them as rape. That is is very possible.

3658

So what? So they didn’t think they were raping her while they were raping her. “I forced her to have sex but I didn’t think it was rape” is not a defense. Lots of guys think that coercing a woman to have sex that she doesn’t want isn’t rape. Take a look at the study I posted earlier, where one in six of the survey respondents said if they could get away with it, they’d force a woman to have sex against her will, but they wouldn’t rape her. It’s a mystery to me what these guys think rape is, if forcing a woman to have unwanted sex isn’t it.

But rape is rape, and it doesn’t matter whether the rapists enjoy the delusion that they are not committing a crime, while committing a crime. They’re still just as culpable.

3659

“What do parents of girls recommend to their daughters. Should they accept the walk home?”

Depends on what specific risk you are trying to mitigate.

Walking around alone and inebriated is dangerous. Accepting a ride or help from the wrong person can also be dangerous. Hannah Graham made both of these mistakes.

Our big daughters should do the same as what we tell our little kids – if possible get help from a woman or a cop. But don’t put yourself in that situation in the first place.

3660

Cardinal i can appreciate your stance, but really girls are getting themselves jammed up these days and then sometimes abdicating responsibility for their earlier actions. That’s not victim blaming, that’s merely pointing out that sometimes things are not what they seem to be on surface. It feels like you sometimes think that only one party is responsible when two parties end up in bed together, I prefer to think that both parties bear equal responsibility.