All UVa frats on suspension

Parents Forum
3781

Although I have generally found al2simon’s posts excellent, and greatly appreciate the insider’s view, it seems to me with post #376 , we are back to the idea that men have rights to women’s bodies unless explicitly told “no,” an idea awcntdb has enthusiastically supported on several threads. With post # 3777, again we are told rape isn’t really a problem on college campuses. Or at least that is my reading of those posts and apologies if I’m misinterpreting.

I don’t care a hoot about Title IX. I do care about changing campus culture and support affirmative consent, which I think is beneficial to all students male and female and all orientations.

The Rolling Stone story has been an interesting journey. Does the fact this story isn’t true mean rape isn’t a problem at UVA? Is gang rape on college campuses a myth? Is rape at fraternity houses a myth? Is this idea rape on campus is a problem just an overblown media hype that somehow puts young men at risk for false accusations? If women will just refrain from drinking, be very careful about where they go on campus, clearly rebuff unwanted advances, and scream and fight if someone tries overpower them: does that remove the rape problem entirely? Is that the simple solution, except for those cases where women are either deliberately seeking revenge or mentally ill?

I have no idea whether the 1 in 5 number is true or false. After this story appeared, a surprising number of friends and acquaintances shared their own rape stories. They believe they were raped. It will depend on definition. If middle and upper middle class college men, especially fraternity men, are incapable of rape, then of course, these women weren’t actually raped. At one time, droit de seigneur wasn’t considered rape. Definitions change. We evolve.

If my sons or husband are falsely accused of rape, I will want them to have excellent representation and fair trials. The possibility they will find themselves in that situation is almost inconceivable to me. And I am one of those people who tends to worry about the most extremely remote possibilities. (I am prepared for zombie invasion. ) My men don’t put themselves in risky situations. They only have sex with people they already know pretty well. My sons have turned down advances from women and men. They have only been interested in potentially serious relationships. The more I read these threads, the prouder I am of them. ( I should put this on the brag thread.)

Obviously I have nothing useful to add to a Title IX discussion. The smart folks can figure it out.

I appreciate having had this opportunity to state my views and am only repeating myself at this point. So it’s crickets from me here on out. Also, I just find this thread profoundly depressing. It has kept me up at night and given me bad dreams.

3782

It’s not clear to me what the Yale guy was found guilty of doing. If Yale determined that he raped the accuser, then I think expulsion is the right solution, both to protect other Yale students and to make a statement that Yale doesn’t tolerate rape. If it were lesser sexual misconduct, then the lesser punishment would be appropriate. From what is said, I can’t judge whether the punishment given is what I’d think appropriate.

3783

More recently, Yale expelled two students for sexual assault: http://provost.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/FINAL_Jul2014_Report.pdf

3784

@hunt, the new report is interesting in that they have made their language much more specific. They use phrases like “sexual intercourse without consent” or “touching of a sexual nature without consent”, etc. It’s not surprising that they expanded their language since they had received a lot of criticism. Still, while two of the cases of sexual intercourse without consent resulted in expulsion, there were several others where the complainant dropped the matter or where the respondent was expelled only for the summer (and I’m assuming they weren’t asked to leave early). And a few where the case was pending because one or more of the parties was “unavailable”, which sounds to me like they were fleeing the consequences.

This article has more details, including a professor who resigned and a marked increase in the number of sexual assaults reported.

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/blog_posts/1860

My earlier point wasn’t about the punishment being adequate or not - none of us can know that due to the vague language - but simply that it was the most severe punishment meted out. Despite the fears of the MRAs there is no rampant expulsion of men because women have had sex that they regret later. Extreme and odd cases of injustice exist, as they always seem to in every sphere of life, but they are not the norm and while we should always try to ameliorate cases like that, I’m dismayed at how much they are dominating the narrative today.

3785

Wait, what? (from greenwitch’s link)

They found that he raped her, and all he gets is a two semester suspension? Did he also get a sternly worded letter?

This, right here, is what I object to. He raped her, and all he gets is a slap on the wrist. How is this right?

3786

@Cardinal Fang, that is from Hunt’s link. So the infraction was reported between January and June 2014 and he was suspended through the summer of 2014. What is the chance that he had to leave that spring semester early? Snowball’s chance in heck, so no big deal unless you were planning to take summer courses there!

Unless… he was scheduled to graduate in the spring of 2014 and they made him wait. Doesn’t make sense. If an offense warrants a suspension, it should be a regular semester, not a summer or otherwise optional semester.

Then again, Yale is famous for suspending someone for one day!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/yale-sexual-assault-punishment_n_3786885.html

But at least that guy wasn’t a rapist, only an attempted rapist.

3787

Nice try, but that is not what I have ever said or implied.

What I have said and will repeat here again is that it is wrong to expect and implement different standards of intellectual acuity for males and females when both are in intoxicated states. And ironically, to think differently reinforces that men are superior to women in thinking and decision-taking abilities - a concept I thought we were past because men and women are supposedly equal.

If a female in an intoxicated state cannot consent, so cannot an intoxicated male. Therefore, it is wrong to state that when both are in an intoxicated state, the male is the only one responsible to take sexual decisions at that point. I do not sign on to the fact the male is superior, in the ability to think, in that intoxicated situation. I like the idea of equality across the board.

And I am supported by the laws in many states in which when both the male and female are intoxicated, the male must knowingly be aware that the female is intoxicated beyond the point of consent, les it is not viewed as rape.

When advocates have to mischaracterize what someone say kind of indicates they know they are on the losing side of an argument. I see males and females as equals and both can take stupid, dumb, and regrettable sexual decisions when sober or when intoxicated. But that is just me, i.e., females can be equally dumb and stupid as males.

I grew up with a sister thinking she is equal and does not view herself a lower-class citizen who needs special protections. And I married a similar viewing female. I, like they, do not get this victim-based, less-than equal, and that females need help when they take stupid decisions mindset. I am cool with not getting it because it must suck living a victim mindset. I actually feel sorry really for people who go through life viewing themselves like that.

3788

In what other situation is being drunk an excuse for committing a crime? Why should being drunk be an excuse for rape?

Suppose a guy has sex with a woman. Suppose she did not do any consenting, either because she could have but didn’t, or she was too incapacitated to do anything like consenting. And our guy whines that he was so drunk he didn’t notice. Why on earth are you giving this rapist a pass, awcntdb? Do you also give the DUI murderer a pass because he didn’t realize he was too drunk to drive, oh sorry too bad, friends and family of the parent of four he just killed? Or do you say that the drinker was responsible for drinking and responsible for what he did while drunk?

3789

Well, it first has to be legally classified as rape, not based on your belief, but based on the law. Does it not? Therefore, your questions above are essentially irrelevant in the cases where it is not deemed as rape, regardless of what you say.

Instead of having a useless back and forth discussion here based on your presumptious hypotheticals that exclude all the important details that a real legal case involves, I highly recommend instead you find a competent attorney to sit down with and discuss the many aspects of sexual assault laws - and specifically discuss those aspects regarding drunk sex when both the male and female are drunk. Really, you are living in a bit of a fantasy land legal-wise on this issue, but you are free to do so, of course.

3790

The Vanderbilt rapists are trying to claim that they aren’t guilty because they were drunk. The prosecutor isn’t having any. We’ll see what the jury says. What do you say, awctnb?

3791

This is the type of question someone asks when they get so caught up in something that anything can become proof of whatever they believe. It is people grasping at whatever straw that may hopefully prove their point.

The only logical answer is, “How in the would I, or anyone else on the outside, know what to say?” There are upteen details, which are unknown to the public, so drawing any conclusions is for speculators only.

More importantly though, just because someone gives X defense in one case, which might not be applicable, does not mean at all, in the least, that said defense is not applicable in a similar cases in the same state in the same prosecutor’s office simply because the details of the other cases are different. Maybe there is a detail that makes this defense moot in this case. You or I have not a clue, so to speculate is useless.

However, another possibility is the prosecutor could be like you. And regardless of what the facts are relative to the law, he decides to try the case in hope of getting a jury to see it his way. That is fine, as that is his privilege. But that does not mean whatever the prosecutor thinks goes beyond this one case or is even correct on the facts.

Additionally, the prosecutor could be so caught up in advocacy ideology, such as the RS reporter, that even if he has a weak case, he wants to make some larger statement and is using the court as the grandstand. I have seen that enough to know such cases happen more than they should.

Anyway, as to believing all the newspapers says, I am kind of done with that on this issue and other advocacy-based issues. They will happily print lies, false stats and misleading data etc. if they think it advances a favored agenda. Overall, the media has shown all to well that it cannot be trusted in vetting and getting details correct.

Therefore, I am actually with you on this one; let the jury decide, as it has all the properly vetted details.

3792

Let’s change it a little. You, awcntdb, are on a jury in a case similar to the Vanderbilt case. You see and believe evidence that the defendants carried an unconscious person into a room and had sexual intercourse (or something involving penetration) with the person. You see and believe evidence that the defendants were extremely drunk. Does their drunkenness mitigate their offense in any way, according to you the juror?

3793

@alh: I don’t know if you’re still reading this thread, but in your last post it appears that you read the question I asked in my post 3761 as implying that if a woman didn’t resist her rapist then she wasn’t truly raped. That wasn’t my intent at all. If you care to, I’d encourage you to read my question again. I asked my question in the spirit of someone who was aware of their own blind spots was willing to admit and try to correct their own ignorance. I totally understand intellectually why many women don’t resist; I was trying to understand it at a more visceral level.

As to your (rhetorical) question asking if gang rape is a myth on campus - obviously one ironic part of the UVa scandal is that 30 years ago a gang rape did occur at that particular fraternity. We know this because one of the rapists confessed. But I still believe that the individuals who were (apparently falsely) implicitly accused of orchestrating a gang rape in 2014 deserve an apology. We judge people on a case-by-case basis and they can’t be held responsible for what happened before they were born. Just as false allegations of rape do not invalidate the real problem, that fact that a real rape occurred in the past does not mean that falsely accused people don’t deserve justice as well. I do think there is a heavy concentration of sexual assault related problems in fraternity culture in general, and I think colleges would net be better off without them (and sororities, but for different reasons).

As to your point about women refraining from drinking, I’ll share my own conflict on this issue. When speaking to my daughter in college, I tell her that excessive drinking puts her at much higher risk for sexual assault. I tell her she shouldn’t drink to the point of severe impairment, and if she or her girl friends do so they need to look out for each other (Off topic, but it does appear that women in college today drink much more heavily than they did when I was in college). As a parent, my overriding goal is to prevent her from being assaulted (principles be damned), and I think this advice lowers her risk considerably. But despite this being my best advice to my own daughter, I’d never dare give this advice to other women in college for fear of the condemnation I’d get.

The truth of the matter is that this makes me a hypocrite and a coward.

Anyway, please take care, and I hope you don’t have any more hours of lost sleep.

3794

The truth of the matter is that this makes me a hypocrite and a coward.

Well, I don’t think it makes you that at all. It’s common sense advice and I have no idea when it became victim blaming to suggest that people not drink so much that they pass out because really, that would be better.

3795

I guess I have a different take on the purported “defense”. Their lawyer has to make some kind of argument - I don’t expect their lawyer to say “Yep, they’re guilty. I’ll help you plug the electric chair in”. Their lawyer has to mount some kind of defense, but there’s video tape, so his defense is pretty absurd. I’d view the craziness of the defense as a good sign because it shows how strong the case against these guys is. I don’t view it as a sign that there are a lot of rape apologists out there to appeal to.

I’d only be angry if the jury/judge bought it. Of course, the so-called “Twinkie defense” did kind of work, so I wouldn’t rule anything out.

3796

While I agree with this, I see the issue differently. Not as necessarily better, per se, but as none of my business and not my responsibility.

I could care less really if females and males decide to voluntarily drink themselves into obvivlon and then have drunk sex. None of my business. However, I do have a problem if they decide to voluntarily do as much and then think they can transfer their liability for doing stupid things, such as drunk sex, to me or to others.

Hey, voluntarily put yourself in a useless stupor if you want, but understand that there are potential consequences of you doing things that you regret and not even know you did the next day. And do not expect adult babysitters to look after you. You are an adult, and you did the drunkedness to yourself. Man up and live with it. If you cannot, then do not drink. In life, there is no free lunch, so do not expect one here.

3797

@CardinalFang: I completely agree with your outrage. I believe that colleges have historically been too reluctant to use expulsion (their maximum penalty) to punish serious cases such as this one appears to be.

Despite the fact that my last few comments have been about weak due process protections for the accused, in my old posts (2284, 2299) I raised this point:

I think the case @greenwitch highlighted illustrates my point, and I think it’s a systemic problem.

From what I can tell, I land at a much different place than every other commenter. I’d like to move towards higher standards and more due process, but harsher punishments for serious offenses. Not perfect, but better. Rather than what the OCR has done, for serious cases I’d have stronger due process (independent adjudicators, access to legal representation, ability to review & challenge evidence, cross-examine witnesses). This is for simple fairness but mostly because we’re more likely to discover the truth and to be more certain of it. I would also allow varying standards of proof depending on the punishment.

Preponderance of the evidence could suffice if the punishment was probation or less, but I’d want clear
and convincing before a suspension and expulsion. Since I view expulsion as much worse than suspension (which generally allows a student to return after a period of good behavior), I might even have a slightly higher standard for expulsion since I’d want to be quite certain before expelling a student and thereby damaging his ability to attend a comparable college in the US.

Because we’re stuck using a weaker standard, I fear that because the level of certainty is lower the natural reaction will be to be more reluctant to mete out tougher punishments. I think we’ve moved in the wrong direction. Of course, the written rules are one thing, but only time will tell how it will eventually actually play out.

3798

Washington Post’s T. Rees Shapiro interviews Liz Seccuro. She also feels it’s important for the truth to come out about what really happened to Jackie that night. She would like “to know the real story, whatever it may be.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-rape-survivor-author-questions-rolling-stone-account/2015/01/16/a50f0560-9cfe-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html

3799

So, if both of us are drunk and he pushes me, I fall down…I didn’t really get pushed or need to pick myself up off the floor because I was drunk, he was drunk and he had an “unstoppable urge?” Uh? Talk about excusing a male based on animal instincts. Blows my mind.

*If a female in an intoxicated state cannot consent, so cannot an intoxicated male. * But he can still be held accountable for what he did, brain cells working properly or not… And his friends and family can blame it on his being stupid drunk, but if he did it, he did it.

If some want to hold her responsible for her self-control, then you must also hold him responsible for his.

The male is superior in his ability to force. Don’t you see that? When you look at your sister and wife and assume (that’s what it is) they would never find themselves vulnerable, you miss the point- for them and for the rest of women. This isn’t simply about a sexually experienced young woman who tests her own limits, has a wild night, what the heck.

It’s true that parts of this are about the woman who puts herself in his bed and then has later regrets. But that’s not all this is about. It’s a travesty to see it through a narrow lens. (And that includes all sorts of statements made on this thread.)

Al2, I think the colleges are reluctant to mete out tougher punishments because they know how hard it is to get at the 100% picture. The aren’t bringing in people with no familiarity to weigh these cases. These are college folks reviewing. I don’t think we can assume “clear and convincing” isn’t used for the most severe punishments, just because it;s not supposed to be.

3800

You can’t read the Yale reports and come to conclusions because there is no detail. What I like about them is that it shows that there is a variety of adjudicative decisions. While not totally transparent it does shed some light on how one college offers services and how one college concludes investigations. It should be that way… each accusation is a different situation and it would be a gross miss to assume that every case meets the definition of criminal behavior or that each case entails force or that each case poses a risk to the entire population of the campus or even to the entire class of females.

It would also be a generalization to say that all men are stronger than all women, but I think it is fair to say that both sexes are capable of manipulation, that both sexes are capable of coercion and that both sexes are capable of misinterpretation and for that reason both sexes should be afforded the ability to put forth a defense either of their complaint or in response to the complaint.

If you believe the December DOJ statistics of 6.1 sexual misconduct complaints per 1,000 students then Yale with I think around 13,000 students would have around 80 incidents per year and that number would be adjusted if you include staff and employees. If the report link earlier reports 70 complaints in 6 months then there are bound to be complaints that are unfounded as well as things that happened that the individual either did not want to report or did not feel met a level requiring college intervention and I would suppose that the annual report would be a fairly clear picture of the situation at that one college.

At a minimum I hope the period of hysteria and off with their head mentality has passed and college campuses can settle down and focus on putting appropriate resources and procedures in place and work with their local law enforcement to take care of the issues that meet the test for criminal. I really do hope that UVa punishes the vandals as it will go along way toward the university taking a stance that ALL egregious behavior is not tolerated.