Mostly the stories I’m referring to were read on this thread. Including that one, btw.
You don’t watch/read any news?
I don’t think any cases discussed on this thread haven’t been on tv or in the newspaper.
silly me: Of course they are out there in the media. That is why there are links.
In reality, few stories were on this thread- and they were selectively chosen, to make whatever point, at the moment. I don;t doubt some women just want an apology. I do doubt most of them do.
I thought we were talking about society. I don’t drink. I don’t take drugs. I don’t assault anybody. I don’t have affairs. i am not getting divorced. I drive better than I used to drive. 
So what?
People don’t have to make the same decisions I make. People can make their own choices.
I am not an assault victim, but I have seen just enough to know that people behave in different ways when they are assaulted. I don’t see some uniform way that everybody behaves…because there is no such thing. 
And people don’t know how they are going to behave until they are actually experiencing the event. People think they know…but they don’t.
I am sure there are people walking around thinking, “If I get attacked my brain is going to shut down and I am going to lose my memory.”
Some people are going to call the cops, or call 911 and some people aren’t. Some people don’t want to pursue criminal charges because…it is hard to convict…they don’t want to relive the experience. This isn’t a rarity. This is a fact.
When I read, “Well I would do this…”
Really?
To be so clairvoyant
If I could be that clairvoyant, I could save the world.
I am amazed that people have trouble with the concept that our bodies are our bodies. I joke around with my wife and say, “Your body is mine”. I really do say this but it is not really true; although I would like to think so.
My husband would never dare say that.
One constant and interesting theme on this entire board is those telling others how to behave in difficult situations they have never encountered themselves. I hope they never have to put theory into practice.
I do agree that some of this could be a parent of girls with no boys/ parent of boys issue. For those with no sons, it may or not be different in terms of how you view this. “It can be quite traumatic to have endured, need to move forward from… and then still run into the accused.” Agree. But it is also troubling for a guy to be accused of rape after the fact when he thought it was just this grey area stuff that has been discussed and then be dealing with criminal charges or a sexual misconduct board at his college, sometimes much later than the alleged offense… My sons have never been accused of sexual misconduct but it can happen and it can deeply affect a kid and their family (Duke, UVa , etc.). I am a woman and have been around enough female behavior (drinking too much, coming on to guys) in college and beyond to know that some of this can go both ways.
Alh, Lol!
Yes.
People do love to tell people how to behave in difficult situations they have never encountered themselves.
The tellers are so sure how they are going to behave.
Then there are those that tell other people how they should behave but the tellers don’t behave that way.
I don’t drink. I used to tell my close friends, “My kids aren’t going to drink until they are out of high school. I never drank so I am not a hypocrite. There isn’t going to be any bs”.
Lol…the joke was on me!
My kids are grown up. They are great adults.
Savannah Dietrich was in high school - and her accusers were found guilty in a court of law - she didn’t like the sentence and was “unsatisfied” and “outed” their names despite a court order because they were all juveniles and then she was charged with contempt of court or something like that - which later was dropped. So what does this have to do with colleges? Or adult men and women having sex?
We don’t need to surmise that many women don’t seek serious punishments; looking at disciplinary reports (like those from Yale) show us this–a substantial number of women choose informal proceedings, which cannot result in suspensions or expulsions. They result in counseling, instructions to the target to keep away, etc. It’s possible that some of them are pushed to choose this option, but it may well be that others want a more limited level of intervention. This is part of what makes me a bit nervous about mandatory reporting to the police.
sevmom: I only gave birth to sons. Now I have a daughter-in-law who calls me Mom, so I do count her as a daughter.
I have posted a bunch of times it never occurred to me my sons would be falsely accused of rape. Occasionally I worried about meteors in the vicinity of their colleges.
OTOH probably dstark agrees with me that when they grow up okay, it is more luck than anything else. I am very very lucky.
adding: Just for a bit of perspective, most family and friends consider me one of the most worrywart mothers they know.
I have one of each and am not too worried about either of them, really.
There is definitely a lot of luck.
I have a son too.
“it never occurred to me my sons would be falsely accused of rape.” Until they are. The chance is remote, granted , but probably not as remote as a meteor!
@TV4caster , This is I believe at least the second time you have alleged that your daughter has had friends given drugs at her college and that you have made comments about the “roofie house.” I certainly hope either you or your daughter have alerted authorities to these allegations if you believe them to be valid allegations…
I want to apologize if anyone reading has been falsely accused or has had a son falsely accused. That would be heartbreaking. My point was that it doesn’t impact my worldview. I understand an incident of this kind did impact momofthreeboys.
I know there are some posting and many reading who have been raped. I have no idea how many. Rape seems something well worth worrying about to me. It is a pervasive problem. It is evidently a problem we can’t talk about, here or elsewhere, without talking about how it impacts men. To point that out doesn’t mean I’m unconcerned about false accusations. They just aren’t a priority of mine in terms of worrying. Even as a mother of sons, I am going to spend my time worrying about those at risk of rape, because I want to change the cultural paradigm.
okay- maybe Cardinal Fang had to go to a day job. : ( and won’ t be back till later. I have to do some other stuff.
Whenever there is a serious problem, and there are calls to do something meaningful to address the problem, and a bold new program to address the problem is proposed, there will always be some of us who will ask, “How will that work, exactly?” I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.
Here’s a thought that might be interesting.
As a society we believe that the amount of due process needed should depend on the punishment. In the court system, we have a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard for criminal cases because we’re often locking people up in jail and depriving people of their liberty. However, in civil cases we’re willing to make someone pay damages with far lower protections because the stakes aren’t as high (theoretically at least).
I’ve said before that I strongly believe that colleges need to have their own proceedings separate from the court system because they have a responsibility to protect their students (I do want more due process for suspensions/expulsions though).
But what’s bothering some people is that they’re doing a bit more than that. They’re telling other schools that a suspended/expelled student might transfer to about the sexual assault punishment, which can ruin someone’s college career. My question is – should colleges be able to do that on their own? They’re not just protecting their own campus; they’re branding the student to the entire world of higher education. Should some sort of civil/criminal proceeding in the court system be required for this? Or is preventing a “convicted” sexual assaulter from transferring to another school the most important thing?
To me, there are four main classes of punishments : 1) probation or less 2) suspension 3) expulsion 4) telling other schools about a sexual assault “conviction”. There should be different procedures depending on the punishment.
Why the term “alleged”? I didn’t allege that they were given drugs. I said that they were given drugs. Maybe I am misreading things (which is easy to do on the internet) but your entire statement sounds like an attack on either my story or my actions. Forgive me if I am misreading things, but it comes across as that.
My understanding is that the incident was reported to the police but that nothing was done because there was no proof.
Well, If there was "no proof, " then to me it remains an "alleged " crime.
Then again, what is “proof”. Is the fact that these women were barely functional and have no memory of the evening despite having only had one or two drinks, proof? There was no blood test done but I don’t personally think that means there was no proof.
The difference between a Yes Means Yes regime, and a No Means No regime, is whether “She didn’t say No,” is a defense for rape.
Let’s compare to property rights. In the US, I have no right to set up my tent overnight on private property without permission: Yes Means Yes as to private property rights for me to set up my little tent. When I camp on momofthreeboy’s front lawn, and she calls the police, I can’t say, “It’s OK, officer, she didn’t say No.”
In the National Forests, it’s different. In the National Forests, with some restrictions, I can camp anywhere, unless the land is explicitly posted. In the National Forests, No Means No. Should I be given a ticket for camping in the National Forest where I shouldn’t, a reasonable defense would be, “It’s not posted. They didn’t say No.”
Right now, all across America and the world, rapists are trying to defend their conduct by saying, “She didn’t say No.” In the Yes Means Yes world, that’s never a defense; it doesn’t even make sense as a defense.
Here’s an example of the “She didn’t say No” defense:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jack-tweed-friend-claimed-woman-did-not-protest-1948527.html
He was acquitted.
The Steubenville rapists also defended their rape by saying “She didn’t say No.” They were convicted, because she was unconscious and couldn’t say No.
A Stanford student was raped in Alaska. Her rapist was not charged, because she didn’t say No and in Alaska the rape victim has to say No, or the rapist has, apparently, unlimited access to her body.
http://juneauempire.com/local/2014-08-10/da-no-charges-stanford-rape-case
In this thread, men have said that they continue pursuing intercourse until the woman says No. Oddly, I have talked to many men who think that if a man offers any sexual overture at all to them, even a verbal one, they are entitled to punch him. When I ask if the women they make advances on are entitled to punch them, they are puzzled. "Of course not, " they say. They don’t have to say No, but the women they make advances on have to say No.
Why should I have to say No? No is the default here. It’s already the default for men. It should be the default for women too.