Didn’t acntdb say men and women are the same?
Then they should have the same default.
So, I am very sorry to have clicked on the Juneau case and stumbled into the sleeping example. Ugh, This thread. The problem doesn’t seem to have been a missing no, though. The problem was there was nothing for the prosecutor to call evidence and I’m still not seeing how what she did or didn’t say could have been proven in court. And, I didn’t read the whole thing however I would think if she awoke in an old boyfriend’s bed to find him doing stuff she didn’t want to do she would say stop it whatever the law was so I don’t quite get it. But, that’s okay.
Nonsense, marie. The prosecutor had excellent evidence-- he had the alleged perpetrator’s statement. As I read it, the perpetrator’s entire evidence that the encounter was consensual and not rape was “She didn’t say no.” That’s it, and in an affirmative consent state, that’s no evidence at all.
I just don’t know how you prove it wasn’t to a jury when she is in his bed in her underwear and then hangs out with his family for a few days before calling police and his female defense attorney is telling the public that she knows perfectly well most of her clients are not innocent but this one is and it was consensual and their relationship was off and on. They will be arguing about whether or not he heard yes or no and the rest of the circumstances do not help her case, unfortunately.
I joined just to comment on this thread. I completely agree with Yes means Yes. For far too long society has accepted traditional aggressive male sexuality and it is time to end it. Yes means Yes is the right step in that direction. People who do not get this will just have to deal with progress towards a more woman friendly society. My only regret is that Yes means Yes applies to college students, for now. It should apply to all of society.
This entire thread could be moved the cafe now. Political grandstanding is not really “discussing” and since you are a brand new poster, i think you need to read the TOS.
Can’t the prosecutor just read to the jury the alleged perpetrator’s statement to the police? Even the alleged perp’s lawyer lists NOTHING that indicates the guy sought or received consent. The Alaska law is that he already has consent, just by virtue of the fact that he wants to have sex with her, and she has to withdraw it.
“It’s very, very frustrating, it really is,” defense attorney Kirstin Swanson said, adding her client and his family has “been through hell” since Francis went public with her story. “I mean, I don’t usually go around calling my clients innocent because most of my clients are not innocent. So, I don’t play that game, and I don’t go around being a true believer and saying, ‘Oh, yeah, all my clients are innocent,’ because that’s not true. But this is a case where … there was no sexual assault.” Swanson said her client had consensual sex with Francis that night. “It was clearly consensual sex,” she said.Swanson listed off several reasons why she thought so: Francis had gotten into his bed that night wearing just her underwear; she didn’t say no or fight; she stayed the night and hung out with the family in the days following the incident; she waited four or five days to report it to police and to get a rape kit done; they had an on-again, off-again relationship.”
CF, they are not in CA and even in CA I imagine there are people having sex right now without asking may I at all of the appropriate times. And, if that is the law no real rapist will say that to the police if they know better, because if they can rape they can lie about who said what and there are no witnesses. But that will take time.
They spent alot of time investigating this up in Alaska and don’t forget Stanford still found him guilty of violating the honor code and suspended him. A jury would ask the same questions I would ask: Why did she take off her clothes and get into his bed? Why not take off her clothes and roll up in a blanket on the couch? Why did she hang out with him and his family afterward? If they had a prior relationship then what was “different” about this night? Those are pretty basic questions that should be able to be answered and they are reasonable questions - or at least I’d be asking a daughter those questions if she were in those shoes. She was a senior, she wasn’t an ignorant freshman. Stanford probably “felt” that there was a 1% chance she didn’t explicitly say “yes” which is required in that state and they sanctioned him and I think personally the sanction was more than fair to her- he was sent home for an entire year and it didn’t even happen in California, that just happened to be where they went to college. The law said he’s not a rapist, but the college said he was guilty of misconduct. i’m sure there are all kinds of activists just wringing their hands about this, but I personally think given the mandatory Title IX advice this was more than fair. If it happened in any other state other than California, I’m not sure he would have been suspended at all - probably they would have both been sent to counseling.
Well that’s one crappy attorney.
Here’s what the DA said (edited for brevity)
Interesting related stats http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/stanford-sexual-assault-sanctions-gap-year_n_5454189.html.
Some excerpts:
So in Alaska, you have to say No. That applied in the Alaska court.
But at Stanford, a college, “Sexual Assault is the commission of an unwanted sexual act, whether by an acquaintance or by a stranger, that occurs without indication of consent of both individuals.”
And that jives with the Fed wording: “Sexual violence…refers to physical sexual acts perpetrated against a person’s will…” If it happened in another state, Fed law can still trump, at the colleges.
But Fed law allows the college to designate the punishment it metes out. And it seems Al is showing us Stanford rarely expels.
Huh? Tell me what about that statement is any different than hundreds of others so far on this thread? I would say you are overreacting to her screen-name because I just read the TOS and there is nothing even remotely against them in the post you alluded to.
No colleges randomly expels and never has for misconduct, if we dig I bet we could find the statistics on other misconduct issues like plagiarism and even misdemeanor crimes like vandalism and I bet suspension is going to happen more often than expulsion - college is supposedly a learning environment. It is my opinion that gender rights need not be a zero-sum game. Activists can coexist in this world without resorting to simply screaming and hollering how unfair everything is and turning hatred on the very people that hopefully when they grow up they will work with maybe if their internet history doesn’t cause HR to shudder, perhaps live with and perhaps raise children with… and they could use their efforts and all that rage around the justice system and why they don’t feel that is satisfying their claims. That would be a good thing and far more affective than to have an internet history of screaming at the tops of their lungs captured forever. Simultaneously people that care passionately about civil rights and due process rights for everybody can bring their arguments forth without name calling by activists. Why do feminist activists think they are the only ones that have a right to be heard?
FeministMom, didn’t shut you out, motb.
You are one of the most prolific posters in this thread.
If there is something you want to say just say it.
Alh said something that maybe wasn’t public. Maybe I missed it.
Was somebody close to you was falsely accused of sexual assault?
If you don’t want to answer this, that is ok.
My memory is that momofthreeboys shared, on a much earlier thread, that one of her son’s friends was falsely accused in high school I hope I am remembering that correctly. The two of us have had no private communications. If I am remembering incorrectly, I apologize. There have been a lot of threads.
I’m trying to avoid crazy analogies. But maybe other physical assaults would be useful to think about. Does anyone know what the penalty is for fighting in college?
Say one student initiates a fight with another student, no weapons. Other person doesn’t fight back, or is just blocking blows defensively. Relatively minor - black eye, broken nose. There are witnesses and a medical report. What is the typical punishment and adjudication procedure? Now escalate the damage - say cracked skull, broken ribs. What happens then?
I assume stabbing or shooting someone would be immediate expulsion. Where’s the line?
These questions clearly have both positive and normative answers. If I had better internet at the hotel tonight I’d do the research.
momofthreeboys: You are fussing about women screaming when the reality is a history of being silenced. Women have to get really loud to be heard and even then it is sometimes a no win situation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-while-female.html?_r=0
There’s something incomprehensible to me about telling women they need to scream “no” to avoid rape, and at the same time telling them screaming about rape isn’t a good thing. How do we teach young women to be strong and defend themselves if they aren’t encouraged to fight back? I think we really need to teach young women to scream, and I don’t just mean that metaphorically.
Feministmom: Welcome to the thread and thanks for posting.
@momofthreeboys you seem to have no problem aggressively asserting your own point of view in this thread. So please do not attempt to silence other posters who wish to be heard. Maybe you don’t value opinions that differ from your own but many of us do. I would suggest that you read the TOS especially under the headings of “Courtesy” and “General.” There was nothing objectionable about @FeministMom’s post.