Look at it another way. The police officer’s job is to investigate crimes and catch criminals. If one or two rape victims claim that a police officer is too harsh to them and they are driven away, then we can say they are delicate flowers and they should toughen up. But if a large percentage of rape victims say the police officer is so harsh they are driven away, then the police officer is failing at his job. It’s not the victims’ job to adjust to the police officer; it’s his job question them in a way that permits him to investigate their rapes and catch their rapists, because, again, it’s his job to investigate crimes and catch criminals, not to drive away victims of crimes so he doesn’t have to bother to investigate rapes and catch rapists.
If the police’s hostility were driving away only false accusers, that would be OK. But if the police are driving away true crime victims with their hostility, they’re screwing up a priori. They’re just failing at their basic job, which is to not drive away crime victims.
Asking a rape victim once how many drinks she’s had is information gathering. Asking three times sounds like hostility and disbelief to me.
Hunt, how many times do you have to ask somebody about her drinking? She was FORCED into the bed Hunt. Who cares what she said?
Retead the first paragraph.
The cops who treat the victims well get more arrests and convictions.
The cops who come in with an attitude that they don’t believe or they seem to be more interested in interrogating the victim don’t end up with too many arrests.
“Singling out UVa for this seems arbitrary and unfair to me . I’d be curious about their rationale for that. I was never in a sorority so not sure how all of this works but I can’t see how focusing only on UVa with their agenda is going to solve a whole lot.”
Because if you’re a national sorority, you can’t just say to all of your chapters tomorrow - no more going to fraternity parties. (I mean, you could, but what’s the point, if everything going on is “normal” college socializing?)
But you can say to a chapter in a certain situation - do X or don’t do X. And obviously there’s enough reason to believe that UVA culture, right now, is more on the problematic side than not.
Look - my house’s national just suspended their Michigan chapter because of the destruction some Greek houses did to certain motels in Michigan. They have every right to. So I don’t see why they can’t issue something to our UVA chapter that for right now, don’t go to fraternity parties.
It seems odd that on one hand, there is a lot of hand-wringing about “why don’t national fraternities do more to control their boys” and yet when the national sororities do something to try to “control” (not the right word) the girls, it’s problematic.
Perhaps he asked a couple times to see if she would changed her story or validate her story. Remember when you press charges there is a possibility that it will go to trial and it won’t help the prosecution if the accuser switches up the story along the way. The number of drinks also goes to her memory - so if she answers the same question the same way it adds credibility to her memory recall. I think women are sensitive about the alcohol thing because they know that it is a risk factor but they just need to own that - it’s no different than a smoke who shows up with bronchitis at the doctor, the doctor is going to question the smokings, how much, etc…the smoking puts that patient at a risk for bronchitis. It would be more foolish of us as a society to brush off the drinking and say that it has “nothing” to do with sexual assault becuase we think the police are too “hard” on accusers. If that bothers you turn it around and look at it this way - it’s against the law in most states to take advantage of someone who is incapacitated so it benefits an accuser to be honest about how many drinks she had, if it was a ton of drinks it might bolster the case she was incapacitated. If she lies and tries to play down play the drinking it is actually a less strong case. Go to the police, be honest, follow through.
The most surprising part of Campbell’s research is not that victims say that the police don’t believe them-- we knew that. It’s that police say they don’t believe victims. Campbell says that police wrongly interpret the victims’ signs of trauma as dishonesty.
The Vanderbilt case was on video which is much more significant than what somebody thinks the police probably think. Evidence matters, whatever anybody thinks may have happened since ultimately it needs to be proven.
Remember if the true victim is driven away by hostility, there will be no prosecution and a rapist will go free.
The customer is always right. If the police are driving away many rape victims, they’re doing it wrong. We pay them to take victims as they find them, not to judge that some victims are the wrong kind of victims.
Okay, Pizzagirl, I get it. The national can do anything they want to to any particular chapter. The chapter doesn’t have to like it though. UVa is big on “self-governance” and that is a big part of what the sororities and student council object to in this. There are petitions and resoultions being drafted to address the issue. The sororities want more collaboration with national. This was a mandate that apparently just appeared one day. No discussion even after the sororities and fraternities had already implemented their own changes … Just seems very heavy handed . But as I said, I was never in a sorority. Most people want to be able to freely associate and make their own decisions about where to go.
I was asking a serious question when I asked what you think the police officer should do differently. And I’m not sure I know what the answer is. Clearly, we want the police officers to be polite and empathetic. Do we want them to treat people complaining of rape the same as they treat people complaining of other crimes, or differently? That’s a serious question. Do we want them to delay asking relevant questions, and if so, for how long?
This is not an easy problem. It is not solvable by simply telling police to believe victims who are reporting being raped. It will require changes in procedures.
@dstark, I would certainly think even sorority and fraternity members still want some control over their actions. But as I said, I was not in a sorority so really don’t know how much /if any of their own autonomy members are expected to forego to be a member.
Hunt, I know it was a serious question. I provided you with a link that discusses the very issue that concerns you. Rebecca Campbell knows so much more than I know, more than any poster knows about this subject.
If you read the link, let me know what you think.
It took me awhile to find the link. I took your question seriously. Your question is a very serious issue to me too.
This is the best link I have seen about explaining the police’s behavior and the victim’s behavior.
I don’t know, I think victims feel horrible - why should we treat victims of sexual assault differently than victims who have robbed, etc. I sure felt victimized when my apartment was broken into when I was young and single (I also felt scared, and anxiety ridden that they would come back and sad and traumatized and a thousand other feelings). The police weren’t palsy walsy and somewhat brusk and certainly not empathetic but I didn’t expect them to be. They aren’t my mother or my father or a trusted friend…they are the people that I want to go get the person that hurt me.
I think if we can get police to take down the story, get the facts, and follow procedures they are doing their job. What more do we want from them? Frankly a he said/she said story with no evidence, no witnesses, a prior relationship and alcohol in the mix is probably NOT going to be proosecuted. We could INSIST that the police question the accused but then what? Those are the cases that are probably best handled with counseling and mediation by the college for both parties involved. Thta is actually MORE than a women gets once she’s in the real world for he said/she said.
Yeah, I thought you might be kidding but wasn’t sure! I was actually surprised when one my kids joined a fraternity but he did enjoy it. My other kid had no interest in it though.
"Most people want to be able to freely associate and make their own decisions about where to go.
Then why join a sorority? "
Oh god, now we are back to the stupid “once you’re a Kappa you can’t ever talk to a Chi O” nonsense that those of you who weren’t Greek seem to believe.
What would you rather have the nationals do? Nothing?
Who cares what she said?