<p>Additionally, this sentence should be rewritten, as it presumes a bias that does not exist.</p>
<p>The above quoted sentence should read:</p>
<p>“what does it take for you to believe anyone?”</p>
<p>I should state that the “anyone” does not apply to the tin hat crowd that believes a man can accuse someone of a serious crime and not have to provide any corroboration and the man could simply say “Just believe me, even if I cannot back any of this up” to get the accused formally charged with a crime. If such a case exists, I would love to see it. </p>
<p>As I stated before, there really appears to be no way to “corroborate” a woman’s claim that she was sexually assaulted, for all the reasons I gave, at least for many involved in LE and on this and other threads like it. For every detail a woman gives to bolster her story, there is someone more than willing to discount it, even the physical evidence, in order to make sure that no college man is ever convicted of rape.</p>
<p>This is the kind of lumping of too broad a spectrum of behaviors together that makes me not trust the statistics or the judgement of activists. </p>
<p>Ass-grabbing is rude, it is obnoxious. It can be distinctly intimidating or threatening, depending on the circustances. When done by a man to a woman it can justly be viewed as a part of rape culture, in that it reflects the idea that guys have whatever access to women’s bodies they want, if they can get away with it. I would assume that ass-grabbing in the same circumstances is regarded the same way by persons of all genders and sexualities. (The preceding statements presume that the grabbing is NOT being done as a part of affectionate play between partners.)</p>
<p>To label it a crime and an assault and say that someone should be expelled from college for doing it goes WAY too far for me. I would certainly not have a problem, in a college setting, depending on the circumstances, with the grabbee bringing a formal complaint against the grabber, and the school requiring a person who did it to attend classes in appropriate behavior. (I also think that in MOST cases, the grabbee would deal with it themselves.)</p>
<p>Is it a sexual assault when a gay man grabs another guy’s ass? When a lesbian grabs another woman’s? When a woman fondles a guy’s attractively muscled arm and coos something cute about it, without invitation? I’m sure you’re going to say yes, but I’m equally sure that privately you would think that it is patently ridiculous for a woman to be expelled from college for so doing, and for the guy to be labelled a “victim of sexual assault.”</p>
<p>“The major change in personality could be attributed to any number of scenarios. For instance: Girl is a high achiever in high school. Has plans on being pre-med. Wants to go to Brown. Parents can’t afford it. So she goes to UVa, a place she doesn’t want to be and hasn’t even visited before enrolling. College is more difficult than high school. She starts doing poorly in her classes and becomes depressed.”</p>
<p>Wow, talk about someone who goes looking for zebras instead of horses when she sees hoofprints. It’s also theoretically possible that aliens landed in C-ville and brainwashed her. Or that Jackie is a member of the Illuminati along with Obama and Bush. @@</p>
<p>My guess is that she’s mistaken about specifically Phi Psi - heck, I was in Greek life and I still couldn’t point to all of the frat houses on campus at the time and tell you exactly which one was what (though I could read the letters). I wonder to what extent the other houses on campus are doing any soul-searching and / or internal investigation, or if somewhere there’s a frat wiping their collective brow, glad they dodged that bullet. </p>
<p>So who did have parties that weekend - and the weekend before, and the weekend after? What fraternity guys were lifeguards during that time? </p>
<p>What are you talking about? I don’t like the mattress dragging PR stunt but I’m firmly on record of not being fond of advocacy journalism and bad PR stunts, but that’s about all I’ve commented on. I don’t know much about the individuals or the charges that led up to the mattress dragging except that the leader, can’t remember her name, did it because she was mad about the outcome of the university conduct trial. </p>
<p>"Is there underage drinking going on at these frats? Is underage drinking a crime? "</p>
<p>I don’t like the 21 yr old drinking age. I tried to teach my kids to drink responsibly long before that age… at home under my supervision. However, if we think campus drinking is connected to sexual assault, of any description whatsoever, why don’t we support enforcing the alcohol prohibition? I would sure give up my nightly drink if it would help prevent assault. I am guessing you could get lots of students to agree with this reasoning, because mostly they do care about each other and want to keep everyone safe.</p>
<p>The question, for me, is only whether there is a connection but that seems the common consensus here. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>momofthreeboys: now all female students at Columbia know there is a man other women consider dangerous to them. I think the stunt was a good deed.</p>
<p>I was wrong about ass-grabbing being a crime, at least in the Virginia code. I think the Virginia statute I was looking at for sexual battery that I was thinking of specifies touching “intimate parts.” I now doubt that one’s butt is an “initimate part.”</p>
<p>Boob-grabbing, on the other hand, is unambiguously the misdemeanor crime of sexual battery.</p>
<p>I would say a serial boob-grabber should get college discipline, wouldn’t you?</p>
<p>“Whenever someone invades your personal space, does that fall under the new definition of sexual assault?” You read the definition, per DOJ?</p>
<p>“An accusation by a female is good enough for many on here to get a male suspended and even expelled, even if there is not proof of anything.” That’s a misinterpretation of Title IX. Go read it. </p>
<p>“Was it rape or sexual assault? These are not the same thing and are often used interchangeably.”
Not interchangeably. Again, the DOJ definition of sexual assault includes rape. Not the other way around.</p>
<p>My personal idea: Smart guys can “Just Say No,” too, and just not press for sex. Are we speaking with our sons?
Maybe the crux here is the “sex culture.” And yes, we have to speak with our daughters, too.</p>
<p>Must say, the mattress dragging sure did get attention. Dismissing it as lumpen PR, just to show some cause that’s really, truly an "exaggeration’ of some sort, is not good. Just think about it.</p>
<p>Consolation: I think those are interesting points and a lot has to do with who holds power in these encounters. I don’t see all scenarios as equal and immediately start to think of workplace harassment. Grabbing someone can have many meanings, both to the one grabbed and the one doing the grabbing.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang: I appreciate how you explain this and really just give facts, the legal definitions, no interpretive editorializing. Thanks again. </p>
<p>Agree, if he got a rep for doing this with frequency at a minimum the guy needs counseling because he’s a Neanderthal and as I said last night, these are the sorts of misconducts I think colleges are perfectly capable of handling. </p>
<p>My MIL accidentally called 911, and when they answered, she told them it was a mistake. Even so, they sent cops over to check on her. Which aggravated her of course.</p>
<p>Some phones have a 911 button on them that is near the regular buttons.</p>
<p>I feel so sorry for Jackie. Her life is obviously messed up. And if all this is what it seems, a big fat nothing, then I fear that her defenders are becoming enablers of females who think by such stories they will get support of some kind for whatever.</p>
<p>I understand the push to reduce sexual assault etc. I have not heard one person say do nothing. However, it is one thing to go after an understood problem, but it is another to try and solve a problem by creating bigger, more fundamental ones. </p>
<p>And yes, it is a larger, more fundamental problem when advocates give a young female a false sense that when accusing someone of a serious crime that what she says does not have to be corroborated. Not only is this false, it is an outright impossibility for the judicial system to accept. </p>
<p>And it is also a fundamental problem to give females the idea that they can pick and choose what information they want to share to back up their claim. With the power to affect the accused’ life also comes the responsibility to back up what you say. You cannot be given the first power without also accepting the second part, responsibility to corroborate.</p>
<p>So why in the world even feed young females this impossible construct, as they can only be let down because just being believed, charging, and convicting someone without corroboration is NEVER going to happen EVER. The advocates are setting young females up to be severely disappointed because the standards they want to set will never exist, but these young females are being suckered into thinking such impossible standards do exist.</p>
<p>What poster “mini” would point out (and you can probably find his history; he was a respected poster who was quite competent with research and stats) is that, in surveys, many go through some process of re-definition. “Did he force me or did I just give in?” “Maybe if I hadn’t worn that low cut sweater?” Etc. And, that that’s both a shame in itself, and an issue with these surveys.</p>
<p>One of the last times we had one of these mega rape-hysteria threads, it happened there was a survey on D1’s campus. She talked to me at length about how her friends were going through this rethinking. Even so, in the end, it didn’t show one, two, or four girls on, say, a 2000 kid campus reporting problems. Much higher. </p>
<p>Also, charlesch- wouldn’t you agree it’s pretty hard to miss PKP? It’s right there on the edge of Mad Bowl, not one of many houses lining Rugby Road.</p>
<p>This argument would be better served if we could separate from our freaking egos and the need to have the ultimate say on this topic. Because it is about sex, many seem to have their hair stand up on the back of their necks. They seem to allow themselves to fall too easily into extreme camps.</p>
<p>I’ll post the Virgina code about sexual battery again. I’m sorry that I initially said that ass-grabbing was the crime of sexual battery. It isn’t-- the definition of “intimate parts” is right there in the statute. Forced kissing is not sexual battery by this statute either, but it might be regular garden-variety battery, as ass-grabbing probably is as well.</p>