All UVa frats on suspension

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<p>This has been on my mind also. As soon as Drew was identified, one would think his fraternity would immediately become the focus of the incident. It is surprising that RS (but maybe they are done with this case) or some other publicity-hungry news source hasn’t published the name of Drew’s fraternity, so it would be forced, as Phi Psi did, to do its own investigation. Otherwise, based on the limited amount of info dispersed on this case, I’m guessing only UVA would have any authority to make inquiries of that fraternity’s members.</p>

<p>Lots of good discussion on the numbers there, and I thank everyone who posted links to other studies with different numbers than the BoJ. This is exactly how we can get the discussion moving forward instead of insisting on the 1 in 5 number and claiming that there is a rape culture.</p>

<p>Greenwitch posted a BoJ study that reports annual incidence of college rape at 35 in 1000. That’s 3.5% per year. LEt’s compare this to the CDC study, which says 19% over college life, which I had earlier assumed to be 6 years for graduation on average. This gives 3.33% per year. The two numbers match closely, and map to 1 in 30. Not 1 in 5 as the rape culture believers would say. Not 1 in 500 as in the population at large per the other BoJ study. But somewhere in between, at 1 in 30. </p>

<p>Note that this 1 in 30 number includes both rape and sexual assualt (for both the BoJ study and the CDC study). Rape is far less common than sexual assault, and while some sexual assault is criminal, not all sexual assault is. My personal belief is sexual assault is 10 times more common than rape, so the real rape percentage is likely 1 in 300. But I have no numbers to prove it, and I would like to hear other’s perspectives on this. </p>

<p>Regardless, 1 in 30 or ~3% doesn’t conclude a rape culture, but also doesn’t conclude that campus rape is not a problem. It is absolutely a problem if 3% of the girls on campus may be raped in a given year. There is a general consensus that a few boys rape or commit sa more than once, and I am assuming here that such serial rapists/sexual assaulters commit the act 3 times. That means 1% of boys conduct 3% of the rapes/sexual assaults. That means 99% of the boys are not in any shape or form associated with the commission of rape or sexual asault.</p>

<p>This is an important number to remember before we go for more behavior restrictions/modifications. 99% of boys are not engaging in any shape or form of rape or sexual assault. This clearly concludes that there is no rape culture, unless you consider 1% adoption rate to be indicative of a culture. The rape activists are barking up the wrong tree here.</p>

<p>There was some concern raised about the validity of the BoJ study as well. The key point that is missed is that if the same methodology shows a 50% drop in incidence over 40 years, even if the absolute numbers are wrong relatively speaking incidence of rape and sexual assault has dropped by 50%. I still do not see anyone rejoicing this fact. Why is that? One central feature of activists is unwillingness to show happiness - as they need a cause to rebel against.
This is not healthy for public policy, however. Let us not fall into that trap. Let us acknowledge the progress and then concede that more work needs to be done to lower the incidence from 3% to negligible.</p>

<p>How can that be done? The primary recommendations have been behavior restriction/modifications. It is indeed true that the CDC study reports that more than half of the cases of rape and sexual assault involved incapacitation due to alcohol intake. Does this mean we should go for dry campuses? If we survey the results of the War on Drugs, however, we will immediately conclude that prohibition doesn’t work. We may wish for a draconian system where expulsions are the norm, but jailing people for drug possession and distribution has not solved the drug problem, it has only made the jail population go up. Young people will drink as long as the novelty of drinking is there. I would instead lower the age of drinking, teach young people to drink responsibly at home, so that when they land in college they are seasoned veterans at downing pitchers. They will engage in that anyway.</p>

<p>The other suggestion was moving from No is No to Enthusiastic Yes is Yes. Frankly, I think that’s just plain stupid. To the proponents of Enthusiastic Yes is Yes I would like to ask the following: Have you ever engaged in sex when your long term SO/spouse/domestic partner wanted to but you were not really in the mood though you were really not completely turned off by the idea of sex either? In such cases did you feel that you were raped? Rape conviction is problematic because of he said she said in the first place. To add yet another subjective layer to it - the level of enthusiasm - is just going to make trying rape cases even more difficult. The law needs clear guidelines and not more vagueness. Besides there is little chance Enthusiastic Yes is Yes will ever become the law. No means No has lowered rape and sexual assault incidence by 50% so let’s stay with it.</p>

<p>Finally, there is a concern that rape is a result of hookup culture. To this, I can only laugh. Please forgive me here but if parents think they can stop their kids from having sex they are completely out of touch with the real world. The hookup culture unlike rape culture is real and here to stay as kids get benefits out of it (otherwise they wouldn’t participate). Both males and females have sexual needs. To try to deny that and make Victorians out of our kids - no drinking, no sex, strict rules of courtship - is not only wishful thinking, it is harmful thinking as well which is going to be laughed out of the room by the kids. They are adults and we need to let them choose their own behavior instead of helicoptering for ever.</p>

<p>I will leave you with the wise words of someone who wrote this when today’s parents were the kids:</p>

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<p>^^^
I agree @lookingforward but I WISH people were falling into extreme camps because it is about sex. I could understand that. I think people are falling into extreme camps because it is a male versus female issue. We should all be looking for the truth and nothing else should suffice.</p>

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<p>I hope you told your MIL that her aggravation was unjustified. But, I wish all her 911 class end up as nothing.</p>

<p>It is not like 911 has a voice recognition system that can recognize it was your MIL on the phone. Maybe an intruder could have been female and your MIL got away to call 911, but the intruder grabbed the phone from her and said it was mistake. </p>

<p>The police have no choice, but to show up and check.</p>

<p>@awcntdb According to your posts there should never be a male that is convicted of rape for bringing a woman home from a date and after some heavy petting refusing to take no for an answer and having sex. </p>

<p>And don’t try to argue that I have mischaracterized your posts. You have said repeatedly that there must be corroborating evidence to convict (heck, I think you even said to investigate). In such cases, which happen all the time, there is simply no corroborating evidence. </p>

<p>I guess you blame the woman for going on a date with the guy in the first place. Actually, you are probably right. She probably led him on and deserved it, right?</p>

<p>The only camps I see is one side seeking the truth before one starts throwing pitchforks at the seven deadly pigs and the other side is believing the RS story because why would an an accuser lie? .</p>

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<p>That’s the burden of proof demanded by criminal law in the USA, and not by random posters. The same burden of proof is demanded by criminal law for all other serious crimes as well. No one is being singled out here.</p>

<p>@dstark‌ </p>

<p>If they sue RS for libel then the case would be specifically about whether libel occurred in the article. Well, kids were drinking in there wouldn’t be much of a defense for printing untrue allegations of premeditated gang rape although RS could probably manage to point that out if that’s your question. Jackie’s also considering a lawsuit or could be sued herself depending on who said what and who added how much embellishment which we just don’t know at this point.</p>

<p>. <a href=“UVA Student in Rolling Stone Rape Story Reportedly Hires Attorney - ABC News”>http://abcnews.go.com/US/uva-student-rolling-stone-rape-story-reportedly-hires/story?id=27437138&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>@TV4caster you have jumped the shark on this one. I have read all the posts here and @awcntdb‌ has never come close to implying this.</p>

<p>I also don’t see the male vs female sides. “All girls are lying” “All boys are rapists” Just silly.</p>

<p>As in many cases on CC lately, I see people arguing against a specific case and others arguing for a general cause. </p>

<p>Two college freshman, a boy and a girl, go to a party. They are friends. They both drink way more than they should. There is a video of said girl straddling the boy to music during the party. (I believe this is called a lap dance). The two end up together in a room, just the two of them and they have sex. The next day the girl accuses the boy of raping her. No one was in the room with them, the girl believes she said NO the boy believes he never heard her say NO. What do you do? What do bystanders think?</p>

<p>Is one of them lying? </p>

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<p>Are you sure you are the same SWDYDH? Not only are you using punctuation but you are making reasoned arguments. I’m only half kidding btw. Seriously, thank you for the “new you”. :)</p>

<p>I also completely agree with your quote and many of your other comments in that last missive. </p>

<p>Btw, survey results distinctly depend on the specific wording of questions. That’s Spin 101.</p>

<p>So I do wonder if the results that show 58% drop are identical surveys. And I understand why there are different results among different surveys. </p>

<p>Stats are easy to manipulate- that goes both ways. Which one reason why, if we are genuinely concerned, we look at the core issues. And throw in a lil critical thinking, which isn’t the same as being critical.</p>

<p>HarvestMoon1, the other threads lined up with parents of boys in one camp. I get the concerns for young men. But as long as we’re allowing for sexual activity, we have to make sure the right, full message is sent. We act as if this urge is so difficult for young males to conquer, that they’re helpless against it. “Make sure it’s real consent” could be supplemented with, “It’s not all about notches in the bed post.”</p>

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<p>And that is something the advocates are trying to dismiss, the courts and the rights of the accused. </p>

<p>It is rather comical that people are saying posters are asking for unwarranted corroboration when no court in the land would ask differently. </p>

<p>This approach is really asking for mob rule - we do not like the outcomes, even if accurate, so we want to change the rules to fit what we want, the rights of others be damned. That is third-world thinking. </p>

<p>If we have a system where no proof is enough for the crime to be believed… that is one of the definitions of rape culture. Frequently rape culture is said to exist alongside racism. I can see the parallels in what is happening at present nationally. </p>

<p>JHS said something a long way back about our justice system that really resonated with me.</p>

<p>Victims of regular battery have the same problems of proof as rape victims. If a person punches and kicks another in private, with no witnesses, and no marks are left on the victim, there won’t be a prosecution.</p>

<p>“This is the kind of lumping of too broad a spectrum of behaviors together that makes me not trust the statistics or the judgement of activists.”</p>

<p>Exactly. I’m all for taking rape allegations seriously, but please - when I knew my now-husband casually (as just a guy on campus, we were not yet dating), a mutual friend told me that he had gotten into med school and to congratulate him next time I saw him, and when I saw him next, I (inexplicably) threw my arms around him and gave him a hug and kiss and said congratulations. That wasn’t sexual assault. Would it have been assault the other way around?</p>

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<p>He absolutely has. There are many (dozens?) of his posts that state how you should not believe (or, to be fair, disbelieve) an accuser. However, he then says that without any corroborating evidence the investigation should be dropped. That does not make my statement any less true. </p>

<p>*and the other side is believing the RS story because why would an an accuser lie? * No. It’s awc’s side saying we believe the RS story because why would an an accuser lie?</p>

<p>We are not saying an accuser couldn’t misrepresent or that an article is true, just because published. We’ve said the veracity of the Jackie story is separate from what really does happen in real life and that women should be heard. And some are pointing out there is not always clear cut evidence. At the very least, we can all be sensitive to the issue and less knee-jerk dismissive.</p>

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<p><a href=“This Be The Verse by Philip Larkin | Poetry Foundation”>http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/178055&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Some of our kids are changing the world They are so much braver and more loving and accepting than we ever were and will succeed where we failed. When our generation is gone, the world will just be a better place. We should have fixed this problem for them long ago. And yes, it is a problem.</p>

<p>Just a correction SWDYDH - the 35 in 1000 figure I quoted from one of the BoJ studies was for rape and attempted rape - not any other forms of sexual assault.</p>

<p>Also, I don’t understand your reasoning that 1% of the boys commit 3% of the rapes. Who commits the other 97%?</p>