<p>"You could put any number of prohibitions into place to control the situation. You could make students take a “responsible drinking course” to get a “drinking license”. "</p>
<p>We require people to get drivers’ licenses, and they still drive drunk, don’t they? The kind of person who is up to no good can easily pass a responsible drinking course – and completely ignore it.</p>
<p>The one thing that comes to mind is - a bar can get sued, right, if they serve an obviously intoxicated person who goes out and gets into his car and kills someone, right? How does that work with fraternities? Can they be sued for giving an obviously intoxicated person more liquor?</p>
<p>This is so hard for me because I genuinely don’t see the appeal of drinking (nor of frat parties, either, BTDT, lol) and it’s hard for me to think of any solution which is “well, don’t drink to excess at frat parties, duh.” </p>
<p>^if the underage drinking laws are enforced - no alcohol at fraternity parties. I understand this is a radical idea, but I am ready to consider radical solutions to the problem of campus rape. Of course, if you don’t believe drunken sex and rape are connected, there is no reason to enforce prohibitions.</p>
<p>We had “sexual prohibitions”. We had all female dorms. Heck we had separate SCHOOLS for men and women. Men weren’t allowed beyond the lobby of female dorms. WE’ve had “open door, one foot on the floor” rules. We’ve decided that we can’t enforce these AND we can’t really enforce alchohol prohibitions either but we’ve decided to get rid of one entirely and double down on the other. Which has made the problem worse. </p>
<p>We could force college students to “Pre-register” as sexual partners. You want to have sex with that person? You have to go to the health center and register in advance that you are both consenting to a sexual relationship. If you end up having sex without pre-registering you are BOTH in violation. </p>
<p>While I’m way out on the proverbial limb here, I’m going to go one further. The 21 year old drinking age was a significant contributing factor to the murder of Hannah Graham. IF we had safe places for our ADULT children to go and socialize, she wouldn’t have been stumbling around CVille from off campus private party to private party. She would have been in a supervised, license facility with security guards and wouldn’t have been allowed to walk out stumbling. </p>
<p>Yes people can ignore the information they learn in a course. But they can also ignore requiring “affirmative consent”. Isn’t that what we’re insisting here. A person who is “up to no good” is not going to be stopped by anything. Does that mean we shouldn’t try anything? </p>
<p>“I do think a drunken hook-up in a location the woman has more control over the environment is a safer hook-up. I think hooking-up in the fraternity house is almost inherently unsafe.”</p>
<p>Yeah. It makes me breathless thinking that I went up to my (now-husband’s) single room on our first date. Thank god he was a gentleman and anything that went on was fully consensual. And I am also realizing that while this wasn’t the intent, thank god I have less of this to worry about because my daughter is at an all-girls’ school (not saying that she doesn’t have to worry when she goes to other colleges, but her immediate campus environment is safe). </p>
<p>I really am ready to cry, though. I was assaulted as a 14 yo, though nothing comparable to the Jackie story; I know who the perpetrator was, we didn’t press charges, this was a long time ago, things were different back then, yada yada, and the Jackie story is stirring some really uncomfortable memories in me. If you stuck me on a witness stand, I absolutely know the events that happened to me are true, but I couldn’t tell you the exact date and I’m not even sure of the time of year. I do know what I was wearing, and it was completely “modest” (a blouse and corduroy pants) and it’s an outfit that is seared in my mind. This is stirring up a lot, and I am seriously considering just going to a therapist and talking it all out. </p>
<p>You are correct DEfour. I went to a college in the 70s that had single sex dorms, registered visitors, etc. And we didn’t pay the least attention to the prohibitions. </p>
<p>Do you realize in your registration scenario, anyone who is raped is punished the same as the rapist? Because a sexual predator will probably not get a potential victim to go register beforehand.</p>
<p>I really like you are thinking up solutions and agree that there is a lot of “Does that mean we shouldn’t try anything?” on this thread. Like you, I am ready to do something and change the status quo. We are just approaching it from very different directions. I don’t want any sexual prohibitions. When I write that, I am putting rape in the category of assault, not sex.</p>
<p>adding: while I am not in favor of registering potential sex partners at the university health center, I am very much in favor of potential partners going together to get tested for STDs and waiting for results before beginning an intimate relationship. That is what we suggested to our kids.</p>
<p>Pizzaggirl: hugs to you and sorry you went through an assault and that this story and the whole discussion both here and elsewhere in the media is bringing this up for you. Hope you find someone to talk to about this IRL, even if it did happen long ago. </p>
<p>Bay: those reports are all too complicated for me. Is that figures for all women or for college women? </p>
<p>I am actually glad lots of you find fraternity houses safe places. That has not been my experience. Not in the 70s, not today. I do think my son’s fraternity house was a very safe place.</p>
<p>For me, it is important to publicly state: don’t have sex at the fraternity house. Anything else feels irresponsible. ymmv obviously</p>
<p>pizagirl - you seem like the type who prides herself on being strong and “getting over it” and going on with your life. Please see a professional and talk through your childhood assault. Hopefully then you can truly get over it! You were a child and that is particularly heinous. Good wishes to you. </p>
<p>@Pizzagirl - I am so sorry that happenned to you as well. It doesn’t matter how long ago it occurred, it still a terrible thing and I can certainly see how all of this is dredging it back up for you. Only you know if you are ready to talk to somebody about it but I do hope that reading all of this at least lets you know that there is lots of help out there for you should you decide to take advantage of it. </p>
<p>@alh “Do you realize in your registration scenario, anyone who is raped is punished the same as the rapist? Because a sexual predator will probably not get a potential victim to go register beforehand.”</p>
<p>Then we would easily be able to figure out who the sexual predators are shouldn’t we? If you didn’t pre-register than you can’t say it was consensual so it is autiomatically an asssult. </p>
<p>I’m OK with some sort of punishment of both people if it will prevent rapes. Right now the only one is getting punished are the victims right? Unless you include the people (usually men) who are being falsely accused. </p>
<p>We punish ADULTS if we catch them drinking when they are underage. And they haven’t hurt anybody. </p>
<p>alh - also don’t have sex at a fraternity house for other, stranger reasons. A girl in Oregon or Washington was critically injured when she rolled over in bed and fell out the window! </p>
<p>Yes, alh it is college campus rape (whatever that exactly means, I’m not sure): 60% victims residence, 30% other residence, 10% fraternity house. </p>
<p>Btw my S’s fraternity house feels very safe to me also. No less safe than his dorms did, and probably moreso because the guys all know each other in the house; there are no strange or “mystery” residents that have not been vetted by anyone, like you might find in a dorm setting. I think a college woman would be safe in my S’s fraternity house, and of course I also hope I am right. </p>
<p>Are you saying if a heterosexual couple weren’t pre-registered, the male is ipso facto guilty of rape?</p>
<p>I am not looking at this so much as a punishment for underage drinking, as a way to change campus culture. Right now we pretty much encourage college debauchery. It is part of the experience. I am thinking of ways to change the debauchery so it’s not so potentially dangerous to women. I would rather women give up alcohol than sex. And I like to drink.</p>
<p>Thanks all - I have actually processed it all years ago with competent, good therapists; I am just kind of feeling the need for a little “check up from the neck up” over it, as they say. </p>
<p>While I am in no way relating what i went through to something as horrific as the Jackie story (or Liz Securro, or any of the other stories being recounted), there’s just a special kind of powerlessness I can relate to about not being believed, especially when there is no corroborating physical evidence. I had a “good” family who had my back, and even so it took me a little while to work up the courage to tell them. If even just the bones of Jackie’s story is true, I am beyond heartbroken for her, and if it’s not true and she made it up out of whole cloth, I am still beyond heartbroken for her. And for the young man who is being named, if he really was innocent I am heartbroken for him, and if he is guilty, I’m heartbroken that a young man of promise could be so cavalier (no pun intended) with a young woman. </p>
<p>“Let’s cut to the chase. Maybe I live in a cocoon of some kind, but it seems to me that as terrible and unjust as it surely can be, the stigma of having been raped is hardly as deleterious to one’s reputation as the stigma of being accused of being a rapist. I don’t think I know anyone who would discriminate against a rape victim. I’d like to think I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t discriminate against a rapist.”</p>
<p>This is a quote from the Jonah Goldberg column in today’s LA Times</p>
<p>“If you end up having sex without pre-registering you are BOTH in violation.” </p>
<p>In violation of some campus rule. You are punished for violating the “sexual honor code” and you have to do some type of community service, or pay a fine. I don’t think that is anymore inane that arrensting a person who is 20 years and 11 months for having a beer. And if it would reduce the “debauchery”, I’m all for it.</p>
<p>“I am thinking of ways to change the debauchery so it’s not so potentially dangerous to women. I would rather women give up alcohol than sex. And I like to drink.”</p>
<p>I would rather women give up sex rather than alchohol. A drink is out of your system in 4 hours? A sexual experience you carry around for a lifetime. It can result in pregnancy. It can result in STD’s. It can result in herpes which is life altering. It can result in aquiring AIDS which can be fatal. It can result in aquiring HPV which can cause cancer. It can result in rape. </p>
<p>Let’s make sex the thing we try and have people put off until they are 21 instead of alchohol. </p>
<p>Yes, we get your agenda, TatinG. Let’s just say I wouldn’t come crawling to you for emotional support for any reason.</p>
<p>This whole story isn’t closed, you know. UVa knows who these accused students are. If these were really completely-out-of-whole-cloth-fabrications by a mentally disturbed person, there would have been an entirely different reaction, both at the time and now. But whatever. I’m pretty confident that the bones are true, even if the details aren’t. I’m sure you’d hang me because I couldn’t tell you what time of year my assault happened. It must mean I’m lying.</p>
<p>There are lots of 21 year olds in college, so enforcing the drinking age doesn’t prevent any of them from getting drunk. Additionally, each state has its own underage drinking laws, and the process of deciphering them can be confusing. For instance, in some states it is not unlawful for an underage person to have “internal possession” of alcohol (in their bodies), they just can’t purchase it or drink it in public. I am very much opposed to enforcing drinking age laws against adults (18+). I happen to think prohibiting adults and punishing them from drinking alcohol is draconian and may even violate the US Constitution (Equal Protection). I would prefer to see the drinking age lowered to 18.</p>
<p>I also think regulating sex among consenting adults is ridiculous. Now we are inviting the government into our bedrooms? Ugh.</p>