<p>I don’t understand how affirmative consent will solve he said/she said and since you didn’t answer how that will avoid a he said/she said situation then we have no common ground. For now, what we can do is to encourage students to call 911, LE, school personnel who will provide support in the investigative process and not move to this yes means yes which doesn’t solve the problem anyway.</p>
<p>If we can help create a culture where sex partners respect each other, maybe there will be less lying.</p>
<p>A partner saying yes seems a whole lot different to me than a partner saying no. It’s a positive, not a negative. I should think everyone wanted to be with the person who says “yes” and don’t understand the reluctance to use that standard.</p>
<p>No, what I am saying is both partners were saying yes the entire time during the act. However, for reasons I cited upthread, one of them decides to accuse the other one of rape days, weeks, months or years later. So, I asked this early in this thread or the other thread, how does the accused prove he/she got affirmative consent?</p>
<p>I’m not an expert, but I’d say that the “too intoxicated to consent” level starts in the Confusion stage:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah, doesn’t sound like that mentally confused, physically uncoordinated, lethargic person can consent. </p>
<p>Before that, we have the Excitement stage, which includes loss of critical judgement. Too bad for that person if they make a bad decision because they’re drunk. If they didn’t want to make bad decisions, they should have drunk less.</p>
<p>I have to say, I can’t help but laugh at the parts where college age posters think they have to explain sex to the people in the 40 and over crowd. Why is it that every generation seems to think that they have invented/discovered sex, and that their parents don’t know anything about it. </p>
<p>What? The woman can be on top? OMG! These kids are out of control. hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha</p>
<p>@TV4caster, You are right we don’t know if the “Drew” that the WaPo talked to was telling the truth. We also don’t know if the WaPo asked Jackie if she knew the person they quoted.</p>
<p>It’s difficult to establish the time-line in the RS article as Jackie’s story is interspersed with other women’s accounts and general commentary on how college’s handle sexual assault.</p>
<p>The paragraph that begins “By the middle of her first semester” goes on to describe her despondent state. It ends:
</p>
<p>The part about being allowed to take her exams later came from the letter from her roommate, Emily Clark:
<p>Back to the RS article, a few paragraphs later, the article picks up the narrative:
</p>
<p>The article then goes on to describe Jackie’s meeting with Eramo and Eramo’s reaction. It concludes with
</p>
<p>The main thrust of the RS article (presumably based on what Jackie and other UVA students told the reporter) was that UVA’s response to sexual misconduct was inadequate, insensitive and in Jackie’s case, insane! </p>
<p>I think it’s important to know what Jackie told Dean Eramo and when. Again, Jackie’s experience as reported in RS is not a common he said / she said case of date rape. What Jackie described is an orchestrated, premeditated brutal sexual assault involving 9 fraternity men as part of a fraternity pledge ritual. In my opinion, there’s no way Dean Eramo, the UVA administration or Jackie’s parents could have heard this account and not taken forceful action. </p>
<p>Later in the RS article they quote another friend:
[quote]
Rachel Soltis, Jackie’s former roommate. “They should have done something in Jackie’s case. Me and several other people know exactly who did this to her. But they want to protect even the people who are doing these horrible things.” So it’s important to know what UVA’s understanding of “Jackie’s case” really was, at least before they read about in the RS article.</p>
<p>Have been lurking for 109 pages now and I still haven’t seen anyone say what I’m thinking so I will (hesitatingly) chime in here. Does anyone think its odd that we have pages and pages of talk about "teaching students how to have sex “correctly”, learn sexual communication, how to say no, enthusiastic consent, managing the “hookup culture” etc. </p>
<p>Wouldn’t it be easier to teach our kids how to drink responsibility and enforce sexual prohibitions. I would much rather my young adult children drink a beer than have sex with a stranger or acquaintance. I think it would be a huge step forward in preventing rape if we put our ADULT children back into supervised drinking areas with security, security cameras, etc. Remove alchohol from the secretive corners of dorm rooms and take the power away from fraternity type situations by allowing adults to socialize in clubs and bars. Heck, the Universities could put parties on and control them. You could put any number of prohibitions into place to control the situation. You could make students take a “responsible drinking course” to get a “drinking license”. You could have a rule that says that students can’t leave with only one other person unless that person is of the same sex. You could enforce a two drink maximum. </p>
<p>We seem to have come to these twin decisions: We can’t stop young adults from having sex and we can’t stop young adults from drinking. Why are we trying to keep them from drinking but encouraging them to learn to have sex more responsibly? Why don’t we try it the other way around? </p>
<p>DEfour, that would certainly stop the unemployment problem if colleges hired enough people to constantly watch all drinking opportunities, although it would have a disturbing effect on tuition. </p>
<p>If you think humans can be prevented from having recreational sex, you should read more history and literature. And if you think that alcohol is the cause of rape, go back to page one and start again.</p>
<p>What sexual prohibitions? The universities we are discussing here don’t have rules against sex. I made a point not to give my kids sex prohibitions. I tried to give positive advice: use condoms, respect your partner, assume your partner has an emotional investment in the experience unless you are really sure otherwise and behave accordingly. Treat your partner as you want to be treated.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This doesn’t work. You just can’t ask for orientation so you know who to assign to whom. And an increasing number of young people I know refuse to be categorized anyway.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree with teaching responsible drinking. However, like with sex, I kind of think that is the job of parents. I certainly wouldn’t have thought leaving it up to someone else a very good idea.</p>
<p>Any parents have the right to teach their own children not to drink or have sex at college. And I absolutely agree that would be an excellent way to prevent rape if all parents agreed and were successful with these prohibitions. It doesn’t seem too realistic to me. I think this all makes enforcing underage drinking rules look pretty easy. My long term goal with enforcing alcohol rules would be for students to get to a point they don’t see drunken sex as an attractive norm. I don’t know if that is realistic either, but I like the idea. </p>
<p>“Remove alchohol from the secretive corners of dorm rooms and take the power away from fraternity type situations by allowing adults to socialize in clubs and bars.”</p>
<p>This makes zero sense to me. leaving aside a Jackie-type story where she wasn’t drinking, and just talking about the stories where both are drinking and judgment is impaired and there’s the potential for he-said-she-said – there’s little difference in my mind between two drunk students hooking up in a dorm room, two drunk students hooking up in a fraternity bedroom, or two drunk students leaving the bar and going elsewhere to hook up. </p>
<p>While I agree with your main point, I do think a drunken hook-up in a location where the woman has more control over the environment is a safer hook-up. I think hooking-up in the fraternity house is almost inherently unsafe. (I know some disagree and some fraternities may be safe but I am erring on the side of caution here. Just say “no” to fraternity house sex.)</p>
<p>This scenario has me imagining all the bathroom hook-ups that would be happening. Because you don’t have to leave the supervised space.</p>