<p>Thanks everyone.
I know there is a lot of valuable experience to be gained from any part in a production (trust me, my D has had lots of experience with very small ensemble parts!) and I definitely don’t think she “deserves” the lead or any other part and neither does she. She is always happy if she gets a part at all. We also know that the leads are not always the best parts. And also that everyone is going to have their opinion about who “should” have been cast as what, but it is the director’s decision. Period.</p>
<p>My problem is that the teacher swayed her decision to go into the camp by saying that she had the “perfect part.” Not only did this cause her to choose this program over others that MAY have offered better opportunities, but it also got her hopes up. That’s what gets me! It’s not the part that she got or didn’t get; it’s what was said and then not fulfilled. Comments like “you would make a perfect little Alice” should not be made IMO.</p>
<p>Like I said previously, my daughter has not complained at all, but I hurt for her and I am angry. She has gone through a ton of cr*p this year in addition, so we had hoped that this was really going to be her moment in the sun. And yes my energies would be better spent in other ways; I’m trying! (And I have definitely NOT expressed any of this to my daughter.) Like Mommafrog said, kids are more resilient than we are.</p>
<p>Thanks for the understanding. It helps to vent.</p>
<p>inspiredbymusic, although I’m sure it was upsetting, I think the mistake you made was assuming that “the perfect part” meant a lead role. Is there a reason that that was assumed? </p>
<p>If there’s a lesson to be learned from all the stories here, it’s that you should never assume you have a particular, or any, role until that cast list goes up. Also, remember the adage that there are no small parts. :)</p>
<p>Yes, it’s awful when your kids are hurt and disappointed. I’m still mad about something that happened to my D in middle school – and she just graduated from college! </p>
<p>Unfortunately, rejections happen a lot in the theater world. If you take everything too personally it’s terribly draining; parents and students alike need to find a way to shake it off and move on to the next thing.</p>
<p>I’ve got one - when my daughter was a sophomore in high school they we doing “I Remember Mama” and when the cast list went up the student director saw my daughter and her girlfriend in a class held before school and told them my daughter was Mama and her friend was Katrin. They were ecstatic as they had never been so related in a show. By the time this early morning class ended and school “officially” started the cast list was taken down and when it was put back up my daughter was Katrin, her friend was some minor part which she bumped another friend out of, and this girl was given a most miscast part.</p>
<p>What happened? Apparently a senior had a temper tantrum because she didn’t get the mama role and the director/teacher rearranged everyone’s part. It was unbelieveable. In the end she was a great Katrin, but it was a really wrong move by the teacher.</p>
<p>I have a question: I know most of this is just the “biz” and they need to get used to it, and confusing (and dumb) people are everywhere, BUT can we hope that some of the incredibly ridiculous stuff from HS theater will be past us when they are in college?</p>
<p>I know there will be tons of politics, but we were talking just the other day about casting - our school district has no theater teacher, only community people - really just one person - who pitch in, and they don’t get the job with anywhere near the care used to hire professional college professors. People are people, but can you at least hope that the college situation is something of an improvement? </p>
<p>I think I should see that I’m answering my own question, but I’d love to hear that people’s parts in university theater and beyond don’t get switched because someone had a hissy fit AFTER the list went up.</p>
<p>Also in public schools there’s usually just one person in charge of this whole aspect of these kids’ lives, and everyone is subject to their whims and quirks. I’m hoping that in college just by virtue of a whole department of people there are more quality checks and balances. Maybe they actually care more about the educational value of the experience than frustrating things like popularity and image. I’ll resist thinking about the fact that we will be paying for the privilege of our kids’ being made miserable; I just hope that the hard lessons learned will make sense a larger proportion of the time.</p>
<p>Actually, my D is starting to sniff out some of these issues when she’s making college visits - she’s very well-read in theater and can see when a school’s performance schedule seems more focused on selling tickets than on providing students with solid performing and learning experiences. She also asks the students, and professors when she can, what the feeling is there of being a “company” or even a “family.” She’s ready to learn the hard knocks, but she would at least like to spend the majority of her time learning than just dodging interpersonal bullets.</p>
<h1>1 I have seen SOME community theater directors cast the same people over and over in leading roles, some that I don’t think were appropriate in the shows. (My D didn’t audition for some…) so I think it can still continuer.</h1>
<h1>2 I have seen similar things in college. But putting on a show is a big expense/challenge and I can see a director (particulary in small colleges) picking a SHOW for a group of students they know they have coming along, therefore a certain vision that they have developed. But I would hope the directors are open to some surprises! At one college it didn’t seem to happen, at others it definatley does.</h1>
<h1>3 We find that MOST castings that we don’t get at first, usually point out why the director is director, and not us! I just think they should quit making promises they don’t intend to keep! :)</h1>
<h1>4 It is refreshing to see schools where directors/programs give multiple opportunities to all students to really give them the chance to practice the craft they are trying to develop. It is after all, school! My D left a school where that just wasn’t happening for most of the kids.</h1>
<p>Yes, community and professional theater - they can do what they want. And actually I have no problem whatsoever with someone choosing a production based on who’s available, even having their casting in mind ahead of time. That’s just smart. When I was in HS, we had a Latin teacher retire after decades and she was a Gilbert and Sullivan fan, so our (usually brilliant in choosing and casting shows) theater guy HAD to do the Mikado. Too bad he had NO leading man tenor, nor really anyone who could sing operatically (in those days he was tending toward Godspell-type shows because he didn’t have the voices or the numbers needed even for classic-era musicals). That was a painful show to watch, and NOT a learning experience for anyone. Probably it killed off G&S forever for the several hundred parents who might otherwise have found they liked it.</p>
<p>I also absolutely agree that as rehearsals go on, the same people who cried, “What was she THINKING?” often end up saying, “I can’t imagine it cast any other way.” </p>
<p>My D, being the outsider this summer who came in and “stole” a part that someone local surely had coveted, is aware that someone somewhere was saying “Why HER? She hasn’t even paid her dues yet.” She plans to be very humble to those kids. She understands. (This show WAS open to anyone in the area, by the way.)</p>
<p>I will continue to hope that my D finds a place in a school that respects #4 on your list. AND I will continue to nourish her understanding that everything is a learning experience, that no role is unimportant. And, of course, “Dignity, always dignity.”</p>
<p>Casting on every level, from elementary programs to Broadway, can be dependent upon things other than talent. At a professional level, box office “draw” can certainly play into casting decisions. Even if auditions were based solely on “talent”, that is so subjective - one cannot climb into a director’s brain and second-guess his artistic vision.</p>
<p>I know students who have chosen not to be involved in their school productions and seek performance opportunities outside based on what they considered a flawed process. With community theaters, there are some who tend to reward regulars, or people who put in countless hours doing set/costume work - or children of parents who are willing to do whatever is asked of them to contribute offstage. It is then your choice whether to continue pursuing auditions with groups who function that way.</p>
<p>I also know a director who has a code acronym that he writes across an audition form of any child if he feels the parent is problematic, which indicates that child will NOT be considered, no matter how marvelous the audition. So - as tempting as it may be to think of what you’d like to say - keep your mouth shut, put a smile on your face, choose to have your child do the show with the most grace you can manage, or to not do the show if you think that you can’t handle that.</p>
<p>I agree that directors shouldn’t make statements that could be construed as promises prior to auditions. Auditioners (and parents) also need to learn to not read things into statements and realize that until the cast list goes up nothing is for sure - as for the story of the first list being taken down and changed after a tantrum - well, that is just the most wrong thing I’ve ever heard!</p>
<p>Emmybet, yes, some of the “incredibly ridiculous stuff”, like a castlist being changed after it’s been posted because someone threw a hissy fit, will likely not happen in a college situation. However, casting is always going to be arbitrary, simply by its very subjective nature and this will happen in college and beyond. Learning to deal with, not only rejection, but also with situations where you know you are the right person for the role but you aren’t cast due to something extraneous to your audition is one of the most difficult parts of the theatre business. The extraneous detail may not even be something tangible. It may be something as simple as the director, or another individual who is involved in the casting process, has someone else in mind for the role, or they have worked with someone else on a prior project, or they went to school with another actor they want to cast, or they may take an irrational dislike to you for no apparent reason. All these things, and more, can and do happen. I know of a very talented and successful Broadway actor who was removed from a show prior to its Broadway transfer recently for a ridiculous reason, and whose replacement has made it obvious that he’s nowhere near the same calibre of performer. This is not a unique story. I could go on and on with similar injustices that have happened in the theatre world. Probably the best thing to learn, and early on, is that this business is not always fair. It’s a hard lesson but if it’s one that you don’t learn how to handle early on, it will consume you.</p>
<p>As a parent, don’t get involved and, for heaven’s sake, don’t say anything. Difficult parents will almost definitely affect how their children fare in auditions, regardless of how talented they are.</p>
<p>As for the types of shows that colleges do, I’ve always suggested that prospective students research this aspect of a program. That along with the number of different types of performance opportunities, can affect the topic at hand in this discussion. I’m also a big fan of schools that allow for student-run shows.</p>
<p>Thanks onstage…I was hoping it wasn’t my D!! lol</p>
<p>yes, you are absolutely right about type…as my D has learned recently at national tour auditions…many times you are typed out and don’t even get the chance to audition. Fair? Probably not…but a necessity when 300+ people show up to an audition. It’s very disappointing to get up at 4 am, travel 2.5 hours on the train, sit in the studio for 6-8 hours only to get turned away before you even open your mouth to sing. But that’s just how it is…I’ve been encouraging my D to audition every chance she gets so that the whole process becomes more familiar and she can learn and accept the challenges this kind of profession brings. (Plus she meets alot of people and in this biz, who you know can really come in handy)</p>
<p>It kills me inside to see my kid rejected and as parents we naturally want everyone to love our kid as much as we do. I’m happy to say that my D handles all of this much better than I do…that’s why she’s doing this and I’m just the cheerleader!
My job is to throw her out of the nest and make her fly…whether or not her wings are strong enough. Sounds harsh I know but with practice and a little luck she’ll be soaring very soon. (Sorry I’m waxing poetic this afternoon…she graduates this Friday and I’m feeling sentimental!!)</p>
<p>inspiredbymusic…I know what you are feeling as my D turned down one show to do another that was kind of misrepresented to her and ended up being God-awful…but she made the best of it and life went on. D was not at all enthusiastic about the show but forged ahead and did her best. We laugh about it now!</p>
<p>I LOVE the “keep your mouth shut” advice…and I second that. And not just to the director. Keep your mouth shut to the parents of all the other kids (they may have a child who is always in your child’s shadow without you even realizing it), keep your mouth shut to your girlfriends/male friends/co-workers (who will sympathize but not really get this crazy world of theatre and may roll their eyes at the crazy stage parent). You think your kids are the only ones who get a reputation for being pouty? Even a small whiff of “helicopter parent” in the air can linger long enough to make your child the brunt of one of these kinds of posts throughout your whole community. Everyone knows everyone. Say it here…and you’re okay. We all get it.</p>
<p>My husband and I have been very disappointed for our son at certain times (a lead in one show, Man #1 in the next). But we really watched our reactions and what we said around the dinner table. We never allowed him to bad-mouth the director or to be overly negative about a small part. We found a way to make him proud and challenged even when he was Man #1. I think we would all be suprised to know how much of their dissatisfaction with a part comes from US not thinking it was good enough. They LOVE the theatre, and sometimes the chorus parts can be even more fun than a lead…but if mom is disappointed, it must not be good enough.</p>
<p>Further, advise your child to clam up. Nothing is uglier that a kid going to school and telling everyone it should’ve been them (or a friend) who got something instead of the kid who got it…they have a dinner table too.</p>
<p>I know the OP was talking about false expectations, and not this little rant of mine…but it is a good reminder…even now that my son is going into college, where I agree with EmmyBet…I hope without us parents involved, it is a lot better situation.</p>
<p>p.s. This also happens in sports, careers, relationships, etc. See the good teaching moments…!?</p>
<p>Well…having had kids in various competitive things, especially the more subjective ones…</p>
<p>We do let them have a private “vent,” and a cry if they need it, and sometimes we agree things don’t make sense. Sometimes we talk things through, and it takes a little while to get to where we figure there’s some kind of vision that we just haven’t understood yet (or that things are just rotten). We’ve had to agree sometimes that there are people in charge who aren’t competent - but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re in charge. There comes a point where you either buy in or you don’t.</p>
<p>A parent’s voice is so powerful. Sometimes parents build their kids up too much - we’ve seen that. Sometimes a parent’s saying, “How could they not want you? You’re wonderful!” is just what the doctor ordered. Sometimes our saying that gets brushed off with “But you’re my mom - of course YOU think so.” I’ve tried everything - cheerful, nonchalant, you name it - sometimes my kids had to spell out what they needed at a given moment so I wouldn’t make them crazy saying the wrong thing.</p>
<p>In the long run, we get to the teaching moment. Sometimes it takes longer than others. But no tantrums, no hissy fits, and definitely NOT IN PUBLIC. She learned that all by herself, seeing how bad some kids look, and how pointless it is.</p>
<p>I agree that until you’ve been on all sides of it (the one who gets the part,the one who doesn’t, AND the one who has to decide) you really can’t judge completely. There’s no sadder pariah than the kid the director chose whom EVERYONE disapproves of. How sad is that (when they aren’t inherently a jerk)? My D currently is dealing with a situation where some really weird choices were made - but she figured out FAST that she will keep her mouth shut (luckily she had a whole weekend to digest it and come calmly to school). Not only is she painfully aware that she was very lucky to get a part, with many kids who have had big parts completely shut out this time, but she also knows that the kid whose casting choice she disagrees with most is probably going to direct the student-run show next spring … can’t burn any bridges there.</p>
<p>Phew! This is a nice place to say things. I try not to discuss it much with her - and like so many of these kids she moves on faster than I do! Thanks, everyone.</p>
<p>One of my favorite things about CC is the ability to rant with people who “get” my rant. Unless things are shared beyond CC, my rants have NOT been in public. And my D, though disappointed, has never ranted outside our home. I agree with those who say ranting to directors/teachers/professors/etc is a disaster waiting to happen and just plain rude.</p>
<p>I had a director call to tell me why she hadn’t cast my D in a certain part (one of Tevye’s youngest daughters), only in the ensemble. Her reason was that my dd was talented and would always get parts in the future, but this particular child was being rewarded for basically being a good kid.
I have to say it didn’t make me feel any better knowing what the reasoning was!</p>
<p>My son started attending a large, well funded performing arts public high school as a junior and was informed by other students when he came in that the majority of parts go to a small group of students. It seemed that shows were precast and chosen with this group of students in mind. As a newcomer, he was lucky enough to have some great ensemble and supporting rolls over the 2 years he attended that school and was very satisfied with the theatre education he received. Some of the 40 theatre kids in his class that had been attending since 9th grade had never been cast, even in ensemble rolls. Of those kids studying theatre in high school, only a few have gone on to pursue theatre in college. It is not surprising to me that the students that were not part of the “group” have no interest in pursuing a career in the arts. It’s a rough business. As high school educators as well as directors, do you think the theatre department has an obligation to be more supportive?</p>
<p>this is a great thread because it is so real! My two observations:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>No one is rational when it comes to their own child. We just love them too much. As hard as we try, and some are better than others, we are never completely able to withhold our emotions and sense that our child is more unique, wonderful and special than everyone else’s child. And, that as it should be, for we are their parents! But, as a result, we will always feel the sting of their disappointment in a disproportionate manner to the actual or perceived slight. Which is why it is excellent advice to keep our mouths shut or risk looking a little nuts!</p></li>
<li><p>Fairness (if one can expect it in the casting process…and that is certainly debatable!) is a PROCESS NOT A RESULT. There are lots of theories of fairness (ability, contribution to the program, seniority, need are just a few that pop into my mind). We each look to use the criteria that best fits our position. If our child is most talented, we believe talent should be the measure. If our child is a senior in high school, seniority should prevail. If our child hasn’t had a a lead and the other child always gets the lead, then taking turns seems like an excellent criteria. I think the best that we can ask for is that the PROCESS is fair for inevitably we can respectfully disagree on the result (after all, casting is subjective). Furthermore, different theater experiences might have different processes. For instance, I could see where a high school might choose to give the role to a competent senior who contributed for the past 3 years over a more talented freshman simply because that senior was a great kid who deserved acknowledgement. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>As far as removing a posted cast list–how awful and disappointing!</p>
<p>Interesting thread. While I agree with mom24girls point that parents definitely take slights to their kids harder than the kids themselves (who are, fortunately, resilient!), I disagree with the sliding scale analysis of “fairness” in fine arts. The truth is, casting at the high school level really isn’t that subjective–anymore than who should be your starting quarterback. I don’t think fine arts should be treated differently from sports or academics at the high school level. All things being equal, absolutely give the nod to the senior over the talented freshman. The problem is that things are rarely equal or even close-- and everyone knows that with open auditions! Of course, it is just high school but we shouldn’t delude ourselves that casting based on any reason other than what best serves the production is “fair.”</p>
