<p>My kid’s middle school Mathcounts team consisted mostly of girls. When they moved up to HS some of them got distracted. Girls have a lot of peer pressure to be girl in HS.</p>
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<p>Out of curiosity, I took a “longitudinal” look at the powerful Chinese IMO teams…Sorry, the teams have always been overwhelmingly male. Without even checking, I know the number of male Asian Americans on the US team far outnumbered their female counterparts, simply because the number of females on the teams has always been so low.</p>
<p>Not really pertinent to the topic, but I can not help but note the large number of Asian students representing non-Asian countries in the IMO over the years. Silly me, I always thought it happens in table tennis and badminton only. LOL</p>
<p>Canuckguy, I’m not at all surprised by the composition of the Chinese IMO teams, given the extremely strong cultural preference for boys in China. I recall that at the time my daughter was born, I had a Chinese Ph.D. student, who was trying to figure out what to say about the fact that I had a girl, and eventually hit upon “Looks like a boy!” . . . which she did not. (No more than curmudgeon looks like a woman! 
)</p>
<p>Please look longitudinally at outcomes in the U.S., where the opportunities for women have been changing.</p>
<p>I do think that outlier geniuses in math tend to be boys (as the head of Harvard mused right before being fired). I also think that girls have been shoring up the difference in the average level of competence.</p>
<p>mammall,</p>
<p>Your thoughts are confirmed by the research. The AP just didn’t bother to report either one.</p>
<p>Who cares…there are smart men, smart women, dumb men, dumb women. This whole argument is trivial and stupid.</p>
<p>QuanMech,</p>
<p>The moment I posted I knew someone will criticize my choice of country, so I have just the response for you.;)</p>
<p>Look at the former British colony of Hong Kong, where daughters are preferred to sons , the IMO teams over the years are still mostly male.</p>
<p>When I look at the team composition of countries such as the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, I am surprised there has not been a call for affirmative action in team selection. What gives?</p>
<p>@Canuckguy: Interesting point. You could be right 
I don’t know much about Hong Kong. I have known two faculty members at HKUST, and both are male. I’m not sure whether or how the preference for girls shows up in their education in science/math.</p>
<p>@piccolojr: I agree with the first part of your comment, but not the second. From my perspective, we need all of the scientific and mathematical talent we can muster, to work on important problems. To the extent that young women might be discouraged from pursuing science and math by comments like some of those made on this thread, I don’t think it’s “stupid” to express an opposing viewpoint. Not all young women have the self-confidence of rainynightstarz.</p>
<p>Do you know WHY the teams are peculiarly male-dominated?</p>
<p>Just look at this thread. This is what women scientists, mathematicians, engineers face every day in society. Is it no wonder that we get fed up with fighting this? Isn’t it amazing that we have to fight this AND concentrate on our work, too? Of course there are no women at the very top; there are too many people like the ones on this thread who are consistently playing these head games. Even as just a kid on an all-girl robotics team, I had to listen to crap like, “Oh, they’re just girls.” The women who make it to the level of engineering that I’m currently at are all gritty and fiesty, twenty-somethings who have made it not just because they’re top engineers, but because they’re too stubborn to quit when assailed with this sort of negativism.</p>
<p>The power of self-doubt is overwhelming within any brilliant person struggling with long unsolved problems. When it’s further fueled by people saying that your gender makes you incapable of being the best at your job, or that you don’t deserve to be there in the first place… That’s what makes me want to quit and leave this field forever.</p>
<p>There are some days when I’m just tired of using science to further society, when society has this pervasive and entirely unqualified belief that I’m flat-out incapable of being the best at my job. I’ve had about enough of that attitude. There are some scientific possibilities that are just too disgusting to present in public. This idea that women are incapable of achieving great things in science and math is one of them.</p>
<p>Until you’ve experienced this sort of environment, it’s impossible to understand how a singularly talented women could fail to live up to her full potential. This is the only thing that gives me the patience to continue fighting today’s reality.</p>
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I’ve never understood this argument. I don’t care if males are more violent than females. As a male, I don’t view it as a negative reflection of myself. Applying population traits to a single individual is virtually meaningless every step of the way.</p>
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<p>When so much of it is directed specifically at you, you would start to internalize it, too.</p>
<p>It’s not <em>just</em> blanket statements, Mr. Payne. We, myself and other women in the field, are not just taking general statements about women and internalizing them. We have literally been told, to our faces, that we personally are not good enough, and we have been told this many, many times.</p>
<p>After reading this thread, I was furious, and I logged off for several hours. I read a book, and cooled off, and google-searched “quitting engineering”. Second link was to this article:</p>
<p>[Why</a> women quit technology careers](<a href=“IT news, careers, business technology, reviews | Computerworld”>IT news, careers, business technology, reviews | Computerworld)</p>
<p>I found it to be astounding that the second link to a “quitting engineering” search would so specifically target what I was thinking about, and I found it to be a little depressing that this was the case, too… In the article, though, the interviewee says, “Women in science, engineering and technology … talk about demeaning and condescending attitudes … colleagues, particularly in the tech culture, who genuinely think women don’t have what it takes – who see them as genetically inferior. It’s hard to take as a steady stream. It’s predatory and demeaning.”</p>
<p>Mr. Payne, I can understand how if someone said “men are more violent than women,” that you would not internalize it. But if people had repeatedly told you, “you are more violent because you are a man,” coupled with this message from society that men are more violent than women, it would roughly equate that “constant stream” of predatory and demeaning feedback that the article spoke of.</p>
<p>I’ve been told that I’m not as good as the guys. I’ve been told I don’t belong where I am. I’ve been told to go back to the kitchen. I’ve been told that I’m just going to end up as a housewife anyhow. This is not just a rhetorical message from society at large. This is a message that is repeated to me, and to us, over and over, in our everyday lives. This is our reality.</p>
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I can not respond intelligently to this statement. Men will be men (this is biological). I’ve had bosses drop f-bombs directed at me and others on a flip of a switch. I’ve seen people utterly humiliated with the threat of termination in front of 30+ people. Won’t be the first or the last time it happens.</p>
<p>“I can not respond intelligently to this statement. Men will be men (this is biological). I’ve had bosses drop f-bombs directed at me and others on a flip of a switch. I’ve seen people utterly humiliated with the threat of termination in front of 30+ people. Won’t be the first or the last time it happens.”</p>
<p>In the real world, people are tough. You have to be pretty tough to get through engineering programs. Some of you professors may ridicule you or other students. You may have issues as a minority, an older worker, a younger worker, a fat worker, a thin worker, a tall worker or a short worker. Life isn’t necessarily a picnic for anyone.</p>
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No, this is not “our” reality. I’m a girl in science, too, and always grossly outnumbered by guys, often to the point of being the only girl in the room, but I don’t think it matters at all. When I don’t think about gender, nobody else does either. Or if they do they do it in their heads. Maybe people notice and disparage your gender because you unconsciously make it the defining point of who you are as an engineer.</p>
<p>As someone who was always pretty good at math, but no genius, I’m all for finding out that girls and boys are equally good at math. I do think a large part of it is socialization and society’s expectations, but I still can’t help thinking there is something in boy’s wiring that makes them different. It may be more a question of liking math better as opposed to being better at it. We practice what we enjoy doing.</p>
<p>I do see encouraging signs of change. When I was at an all girls school where you’d think pressure to conform might have been less, only 4 out of 80 girls took calculus as seniors. Now a graduating class of the same size probably has at least 40. I don’t remember the exact numbers but there were only 2 girls on my son’s MatCounts team - out of a dozen or so.</p>
<p>I’m in a male dominated field (architecture). There are only a tiny number of women running firms. I’m all for breaking down gender barriers. I don’t seeing anyone in our schools saying girls can’t be on teams, aren’t good at math and science, but I do I see self-selection happening.</p>
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No, this is NOT biological. It is just rude and crude. I would be willing to bet you that men in top positions did not get there by exhibiting this behavior. In fact, people I know of who did exhibit this behavior were fired.</p>
<p>“No, this is NOT biological. It is just rude and crude. I would be willing to bet you that men in top positions did not get there by exhibiting this behavior.”</p>
<p>Look at the biographies of top CEOs in high-tech.</p>
<p>“In fact, people I know of who did exhibit this behavior were fired.”</p>
<p>It’s harder to get fired if you’re the guy at the top.</p>
<p>If someone wants to insult and ridicule you, they’ll find a way. You just have to find a way to get the job done better than everyone else. Or go somewhere else where they reward talent.</p>
<p>Are you saying that top men in tech industries behave in this boorish way? Honestly, most men I have known in higher management positions in business and healthcare have behaved in a refined manner. Are you saying that tech industries have more than their fair share of jerks and such bad behavior is acceptable there?</p>
<p>Also, I am trying to give men a break. Nature does not dictate that men must be rude and crude with a pitbull mentality.</p>
<p>I would suggest reading the biographies. For fun, read about the corporate culture at Enron. Power can corrupt.</p>
<p>@aibarr: I strongly encourage you to stick with engineering as long as you enjoy the work itself. As you continue in your career, I will bet that the personally directed disparagement will taper off to nearly zero; and meanwhile the %age of women in your field is practically bound to increase. Back in post #73, when I mentioned the extra baggage that gets handed to women, I wasn’t expecting amb3r to show up, offering an exceptionally nice set of Louis Vuitton.
If you ever run into Mary Good, she’s a good role model (though a chemist and not an engineer).</p>
<p>@amb3r: I’m pleased that you’re experiencing a gender-neutral environment. It’s encouraging, and it’s what most people would wish for any scientist, mathematician, or engineer. But you are young, yes? aibarr is an engineer, and she’s in Texas. Her experience is different from your experience on both counts, I think; and I’m as sure as one can be from the internet that aibarr isn’t bringing it on herself.</p>