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<p>Folks who don’t think they (the girls) are as good? Just a hunch. </p>
<p>In truth it’s the same reason there are few AMA Roadracing female motorcycle riders in the top 100 (or pick bullfighters, whatever) . Few try. And fewer still get the support and encouragement.</p>
<p>Currently, I have to admit, the people who win the most math contests are often guys. In math classes, more girls gets A’s. The only person who got a perfect in my school’s Calc BC Final (AP level) was a girl.
but So what? realistically, those who compete in the IMOs do little to affect your lives. Unless you are a black level mopper, even then does it matter if more are girls or boys?</p>
<p>My freshmen year, 2 guys in my year took calc BC. My sophomore year, 6 guys, another girl an I took calc bc. 100% of the girls got A’s, only about 66% of the guys got A’s. The graduating year after me, only one person took calc BC as a freshmen and she was a girl.
I am a girl, I like math, but by no means am I really good at it compare to the moppers at my school ( one of the moppers is a girl!) nor do I care too much that they are that much better than me at math. I am who I am. How good at math I am doesn’t like define who I am. I can still get to where I want in life from the things I learn. However,I have to say, , I do get weird looks from people growing up liking math.
Isn’t it a bit obsolete to argue if guys are better or equal at math if you are not one of the people making the difference completing in IMOs?</p>
<p>Hi, mathmom–curmudgeon and I were participating in a discussion on this point over in the Parents’ Cafe, when some posters who really didn’t seem to be parents at all came by and started to insult curmudgeon (clearly, they were clueless). To summarize my much longer posts there, I think you really have to look at the relative performances longitudinally, over a long time. It seems to me that the performance inequalities have been declining and I expect that they will continue to decline, but it’s a slow process.</p>
<p>Personal heroine: Philippa Fawcett. She took the maths tripos (final undergrad exams, about 30 hours all together) at Cambridge University in 1890. The performance of women in the tripos was always announced separately, after the men’s placements–normally in the form “between I. M. Slightly-Above and O. C. Abit-Below.” Apparently, Rouse Ball was the man who announced Philippa’s performance. He started with the word “Above” and the crowd outside the Senate House erupted with noise. Her placement was “Above the Senior Wrangler.”</p>
<p>I would have to adamantly agree that boys vastly outnumber girls at the top
go to any grand-scale math or engineering competition</p>
<p>Come on people, we had fun for a while, now lets get back to reality, it is a known fact that guys are simply more intelligent than females, studies have shown that males average a 4% higher IQ than females as a whole. An obvious explanation for the males superior ability to excel at both math and in the sciences.</p>
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exactly what i said. Girls try too hard while boys are better at problem solving.</p>
<p>I know a lot of girls that make A’s in BC Calc and in Calc 3, but the one thing in common between them is that they hate math. This is not to say that all girls hate math, but that this like or dislike of math among girls affects SAT scores and later math involvement. Granted that all of these girls did well on the SAT, but girls in general hate math and thus have lower SAT scores. The dislike of the mathematical sciences could be due to the poor performance in math class, could be genetic(aka evolution), or what I think is the case is society’s stereotypes regarding math & females which tends to make girls think that they are just naturally not meant to do math(which isn’t the case), so there is no real reason to try to like or be competent in math.</p>
<p>@ username:
There are smart girls too. A LOT of them… and yes, they are most likely better than you at math too.
Oh really? I was the president of my robotics team in hs. No, I did not go to an all girls school.
I was only person in a college math class (that started with 40 students) to really earn an A, my guy friends from hs who took it with me were begging me for points. Only person from several people to get an A in college physics class without taking physics C before (cuz that is like cheating and taking the same class over) and the guys with me in that class are all going to Berkeley EECS, and those guys are suppose to be SMART! I never got a B in math since 1st grade or less than a 5 on any math/science/cs AP test. I am not even one of the REALLY “smart girls” at my hs and def won’t be in college when I arrive in the fall.
<p>Guys might be better at some math contests, by no means do I think they are smarter… my guy friend who will be going to Princeton in the fall even has a hard time telling how many fingers he is holding up. XP
You might have seen the IMO, IPhO guys from U.S. on picture and use them to offset the guys who isn’t as good at math, I’ve met some of them in person in their natural habitat (Go Beavers! both of them) and they don’t fuss over which gender is better at math. Until you are one of those super smart mathers… I don’t think you have the qualifications of calling girls less intelligent, since plenty of them can kick your butt in math. I know for a fact that you can’t even prove that you are better at math than every girl who posted on this thread.</p>
<p>Society plays a larger role than people think. There might be less girls at math contests, how come there are fewer male ballet dancers?</p>
<p>Or you could be sarcastic… then i would reply… pshhh… you only got 750 on your SAT2 MATH you must’ve got like gazillion questions wrong. But then, what do I know about math? I am only a girl…</p>
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<p>I guess IQ only tests for your math abilities, because the current stereotype is girls are better at language and communication. If there is an “IQ communication and language” test for girls then maybe we can prove that stereotype. But for now, I guess I agree with you since that’s the statistics that we have so far. </p>
<p>@rainynightstarz
wow you’re a super smart girl. It’s nice to have you on CC (not) 
There are a bunch of female who are smart at math, there are a bunch of female who are “not so smart” at math. If you’re the exception of the case that’s good. But anecdotal evidence means nothing. I know at least 20 male who are smarter than you and have accomplished more than you. But that doesn’t mean anything. </p>
<p>@Curmudgeon and tom
I agree with Tom, at least he offered some data and statistics to support his arguments that there are some things that male are better at like sports, etc. Some things that female are better at counselor, etc. Biologically we’re wired differently, there are some studies showing that female brain and male brain has different composition, size, etc. So why rule out the possibility that in general male are better at some things and female at some other things.</p>
<p>@curmudgeon
Just curious why the TOS violation report? 
are we not mature enough to be offended with some random discussion as anonymous on the internet :)</p>
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<p>I like the way you use smilies and some “teasing” comment to provoke him. You certainly are a great lawyer. I’ll admit I’ll probably lose to you if I have a debate with you ;)</p>
<p>PS: what do you mean by fighting? are you a hard core feminist activist since college? just curious so I can assess how biased are you (no hard feelings) :)</p>
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No really… if you read my other posts you’ll realize i said there are always exceptions… </p>
<p>ofcourse there are LOTS of girls better than me at math, but there are even more boys who are better than me.</p>
<p>also i never said girls weren’t smart. There’s just different types of smarts. sorta like EQ and IQ.
no, but girls in general can’t match some boys in languages either.</p>
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We didn’t say girls are less intelligent. Only they are better at some other things while boys are better at math and sciences. Plus, just because there’s a girl better than me at math doesn’t mean all girls are better than all boys at math. I bet there are less girls who are better than me at math the those who aren’t. Plus you can’t prove that there is a girl better than me at math either</p>
<p>I don’t see the point of bringing male physical superiority into the discussion - that’s completely irrelevant to the article. Also, dismissing the article just by claiming that males are “more intelligent” is obviously a fallacious argument. If males are more biologically disposed toward the sciences and math, the difference is miniscule - I agree with those who said culture discourages females from being science-oriented. The human mind is too malleable and powerful a tool - and the evidence does show that women can succeed in math. To women who find their passion in the sciences, don’t let arrogant, supposedly all-encompassing words deter you.</p>
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<p>That was the point I was trying to make earlier. Asians win a lot of math olympiad, but there are very few Asian Field Medalist, in fact, France has more Field Medalists than all the Asian countries combined (There are very few French math olympiads)</p>
<p>Compared to the WSJ article, the AP one is very misleading. As I said in post #101, AP completely ignored the finding that while the average scores are the same, males “more often excelled or failed.” (emphasis added so the feminists won’t blast me for misogyny)</p>
<p>So, in terms of average scores, yes, the “gender gap” has been eliminated. But, the score distributions certainly aren’t the same. There are more male stars than female stars, but there are also more male duds than female duds.</p>
<p>anecdotal evidence means nothing for maybe how “good you are at math”
but what about not getting the same opportunities? or have parents that pretty much never emphasized math for the daughter?</p>
<p>A few years back, my school had a free math training for contests after school for the top 4 kids in each class (of about 50 people). A few girls didn’t get this opportunity even though they not only do better than some of the guys who did get selected in math class, but also did better at math contests.
Many of the girls (representing the US in a international olympiad for girls, and ones who got full ride at Caltech) that I know to have stories too. Stories like their parents didn’t bother giving them attention in math till they started learning their older brothers math contest problems and solving them right. Or, when they were getting better, parents have said things like “why are you studying math? should you spend more time in other subjects like English”. Of course, now that they are really good at math, their parents fully support their math endeavors. Things like what parents decide to teach their kids to do first, was it reading or learning to count, was it giving them a pretty doll or an airplane model. These small things do many a difference, especially what people do when they are little. I also know a few girls who were in state level MathCounts in middle school who stopped doing more math in high school because they wanted to study the more female populated majors in college and there would be no need to learn more math. Just the gender ratio of people who go to math contests can discourages some people from going.
Until most of those factor go away, it is unfair to determine how good girls can be at math compare to guys since many of them didn’t have a chance reach their potential. </p>
<p>@username: I was just replying to your previous post. You made it sound like only guys are good at problem solving, and the only reason some girls are good at math is that they study too hard. Don’t forget that the top guy mathelets studies math everyday, many times they don’t have a choice not to study( hello national level math boot camp!).
And the rest of what I wrote weren’t aimed at you, but aimed at the dirthog.I know you didn’t say guys are smarter. No need to reply to everything or get offended. It was late and I was really not happy with what dirthog wrote, thus I rant.</p>
<p>“anecdotal evidence means nothing for maybe how “good you are at math”
but what about not getting the same opportunities? or have parents that pretty much never emphasized math for the daughter?”</p>
<p>Our daughter had the same opportunities as our son did. We have a math and computer science library home, borrowing privileges at Boston College and Boston University, and I was pretty good at providing puzzle books and time with the kids in math. The differences in cognitive abilities and interest was massive. You know how proud fathers are when their daughters get into engineering programs. Well, I would like the same thing for our daughter but I don’t know if she has the ability. Her skills in writing, literature and in reading people are off the charts compared to our son despite us spending much more time with him in these areas.</p>
<p>tega forgot to mention that no female has ever won the Field Medal.</p>
<p>Because the ratio of young women to young men among top performers in mathematics is changing, it is wrong to attach too much significance to the current numbers. While the situation is changing rather slowly, if you look over a generation’s time, you will see the changes–and I think that they will continue.</p>
<p>@bomgeedad: There are a lot of “firsts” still remaining for women. But not that long ago, there had never been an American woman among the IMO gold medalists, and by now I believe that there have been two. (When I was young, several of the top American universities did not even admit women.)</p>
<p>@BCEagle91: Richard Feynman had the same experience with his boy and girl. Sometimes individual children’s interests just go in different directions, even when the parents are eager to encourage their daughters’ math & science interests. Definitely there have been times when I wished there were some way to perform a “core dump,” to transfer what I already know to the next generation. Not happening! </p>
<p>@rainynightstarz: Looks as though you can take care of yourself! Out in the “real world” and off the internet forum, you probably won’t have to deal with as much overt negative commentary about women’s ability. Good luck, and keep us posted on your work! </p>
<p>The Science article was limited in scope and inaccurately summarized, in some of the news reports. I don’t attach much significance to it, because the NCLB tests are not in the same category as the high-level ones discussed in some of the posts above; but a generation ago, you would not have seen equality-in-the-rough, even at that level.</p>
<p>“Richard Feynman had the same experience with his boy and girl. Sometimes individual children’s interests just go in different directions, even when the parents are eager to encourage their daughters’ math & science interests. Definitely there have been times when I wished there were some way to perform a “core dump,” to transfer what I already know to the next generation. Not happening!”</p>
<p>I haven’t given up yet but the realistic side of me sees things slipping away.</p>
<p>@BCEagle91</p>
<p>I do in fact know how happy fathers are when their daughters get into top engineering schools. However, your sample size is a bit small. I hate literature and would say that I have no genes for it since my father is a engineering and mother is a chem PhD. I pretty much sucked at all the langauges that I’ve learned. But I alone won’t prove anything. One of the reasons father are happier when their daughter gets into top engineering schools is that they never really expected it, or thought it was possible since from the general social stand point, girls aren’t good at math and computer related things. When I was little, my mom even told me that my dad wanted a son. My dad taught me how to make model cars, how to think mathematically and how to solve problems throughout elementary school, pretty much raise me as son XP I was pretty much a tomboy and picked fights with boy. wtv the point is, thanks to society stereotypes, father often has different expectation for sons and daughter, and that’s why they are happier when their daughter get into engineering school.</p>
<p>I’ve mentioned the sample-size problem before.</p>
<p>Our son is mostly self-taught in mathematics. I did the math and science things with our daughter when she was young but it did not bear fruit. It may be that it is a matter of maturity of the mind - that can happen with age; it may be a matter of interest. There was a huge difference in ability and that was pretty clear very early on. As a homeschooler, I have a pretty intimate understanding of what the kids are capable of, what they know and don’t know and what their likes and dislikes are as well as much more control of the environment compared to our local public schools (I work with a school board member, the spouse of a school board member and a town council member and have some inside understanding of student, parent and administrative goings on).</p>