But there are ways for those who are academically high-achieving to earn their way in to elite colleges in the US, however, outside of the traditional pathway straight out of HS. UVa take all VA CC associates degree holders with a 3.7 or higher GPA.
Also, Columbia and WashU have 3-2 engineering partnerships with many LACs where if you hit a certain overall and science GPA (3.3 for Columbia, 3.25 for WashU), you are guaranteed (at Columbia, if you also get at least a B in all the required science and math classes) or very likely (at WashU) to be admitted for engineering.
Also, several of Cornell’s contract colleges have articulation agreements with various NYS publics/CC’s where you can transfer in if you have a high enough GPA (typically, 3.5+ would be good).
Moving from CA CC’s in to UC’s is also a very common path (I believe admission is still guaranteed for CA CC students for a high enough GPA at all UC’s besides Cal and UCLA).
In the US, there are many paths you may take to reach a goal.
@Purple with 10-15% getting into the Ivies every year, these colleges are clearly familiar with the rigour of D’s school and those like it. UK universities wont necessarily know US high schools that’s why they use AP scores, that’s comparing apples with apples among US applicants. This year CC is littered with threads regarding kids with near perfect scores being wait listed as US colleges game their stats at the expense of the kids. It doesn’t happen in the UK, in part because each kid is limited to 5 choices so they make those choices count, cost is the same where ever they go so the finance angle is moot so its all down to the academic aptitude of the kid, as it should be.
@elguapo1: Surely you are aware that course rigor and teachers differ even within the same high school. A 3.8 may actually be more impressive than a 4.0 at the same HS, depending on the actual classes taken.
I am saying UK universities are good value for money and admissions are straight forward and based on academics alone, and that more US parents and kids should consider a UK university experience. I am saying the US system by comparison is a complete and utter shambles based on ability to pay, performance in a sport and every other metric used in holistic admissions to the point of absurdity. US universities and colleges look to market themselves in order to extort money from desperate parents and kids who think admittance to a particular school is akin to winning the golden ticket in the lottery of life. I call BS, 250k for an undergraduate degree, FFS. Purple If you want to rattle on about .2 of a GPA in given high school, then you go ahead, knock yourself out as they say.
@elguapo1: I agree with much of what you say (I’d add TCD and some English-language programs on the continent to the UK unis as well) but I also think that you show a definite lack of understanding of the motives and objectives of the various players in American higher education and an incomplete understanding of the merits and drawbacks of the various higher education systems in the Anglo world.
BTW, there’s not much difference between what the English pay to attend their publics and what Americans pay to attend their in-state publics these days. In fact, I believe the English now would pay more than most Americans for a home public. Granted, you folks get to go to any UK uni at the same rate while the US is split all sorts of ways by state.
If you say so, personally I think I have an excellent grasp. As far as US universities and colleges are concerned for the vast majority $$$$ is top of the list, quality of education is somewhere below how much we pay the football coach and how much a lazy river will boost admissions. A freshman year covering senior high school classes taught by TA’s for 70k is not my idea of a quality education. Apologies for all the salt and vinegar but it cannot only be me who can see this charade for what it is.
@elguapo1: That quality of education is so terrible that Internationals flock to the US in such numbers (at least before Trump) that at almost all public flagships and elite privates, it’s typically harder for an International to get in than someone in-state or American (even though at the publics, Internationals pay much more) while in the UK, it’s typically the reverse. They’re also typically not doing so because of the football.
For sure, I am not a fan of big lecture classes either (plenty of those in the UK as well, BTW), but American higher ed offers a diverse set of pathways and opportunities. If you want a lot of small classes, LACs at every level are available. If you want to be challenged academically, you can find that (at almost any public flagship). You can even find that at a low price due to merit scholarships. Also, fin aid (grants) exist. Even adjusting for inflation, what I and my parents paid and borrowed for me to attend an Ivy-equivalent was less than what any English kid now pays/borrows for a UK uni. If you don’t want football to be stressed, you can find schools like that. And yes, if you want to pay 70K for a school with a multi-millionaire football coach and large lecture classes, you can find that too.
Look, I’m glad that higher ed options in the UK and elsewhere exist, but I also get the sense that you’re not all that aware of the opportunities and positives in American higher ed.
Has anyone mentioned the general difference in philosophy between British and US colleges and universities – that the US higher education is much more broad/rounded, since students must take roughly half (or more) of their classes outside of their major? Whereas, in Britain, you study your major… and that’s pretty much it.
I, for one, favor the academic breadth of the US college degree, and for a US kid to go from a US high school to college in Britain, he or she should be aware that the education they receive there will not be as broad as what they would have received in the US. Less holistic admissions; also less breadth to the education.
If they have a beef with holistic admissions, they can research the schools that are more stats-based for admissions and apply to schools among them, or suck it up and do the best they can to present the profile of a strong all-around candidate to the holistic schools to which they apply.
@PurpleTitan Not so fast. International schools are not terrible. The main reason why international students are applying to US colleges is because they eventually want to work in the US, and undergraduate education is one of the best methods for this. Let me explain. Most international students try to get internships at American companies while they finish their undergrad education. While they intern, they try to build a relationships with the company. Once they graduate, thanks to their connections, the student will most likely get a job, and the company will lobby for them to get a work visa.
As for international schools, while they are outgunned in terms of research by American colleges,their education tends to be more practical than the “wide breath/hollistic” approach in American undergraduate schools. As a result, their education is more applicable to their job. To some good international colleges, in terms of STEM, I point you to the IIT System in India, the National University of Taiwan, the Imperial Universities in Japan, and to the British college system
@purple. I was raised in UK went to university in the UK (it was free back then) I am now naturalized US citizen living in the US over 20 years, I also have 2 daughters in college so am fully cognizant of both systems.
What this thread is about, is, if you are like me, solidly middle class not liable for any aid but 70k a year is a huge nut to crack (let alone 2!) and my daughters have no hooks than what is between their ears which puts them in the top 10% of the cohort, then UK (or Europe ) is a very attractive proposition. My Russell Group alma mater is cheaper as an international than instate tuition at our state flagship. In the UK my daughters will be matched academically with universities accepting their grades nothing else, so if rankings are important to you, you reach the highest position you can on the totem pole. Or you can role the dice in the US system where entry seems to be a lottery due to holistic admissions but the odds are definately in your favour the more $$$$ you have; or be content with an instate safety which is perfectly fine if thats what you want.
As it happens I have one kid each side of the pond, but I know which system I prefer.
As for internationals flooding to the US because of the quality, you dont think its not the same in the UK, try hanging out at the LSE or Imperial for the afternoon.
@prezbucky If you want the well rounded liberal arts approach they have that in the UK its called a combined arts degree check it out.
@Mahindra: Where did I say that the education at international unis are terrible?
As for “practical”, there are many unis in the world which I don’t know enough about to judge, but in CS, it’s actually the (more lecture-heavy and project-light) UK unis that are more theoretical and (more project-heavy and lecture-light) American colleges that are more practical.
BTW, if you knew anything about higher education in Japan, you’d know that most Japanese treat their 4 years at uni as vacation time between the HS grind (to get in to a prestigious uni) and grind after they enter corporate Japan.
@PurpleTitan I did some more research on Japan. Ya, your right. Japanese college entrance exams are the most difficult part compared to their colleges. However, I couldn’t find any more information on Britain’s computer science curriculum, and my position on international applicants doesn’t change.
@mysmom & @elguapo1 :
For how many years is a dorm at UCL guaranteed for, though, however?
BTW, someone with the AP scores to get in to UCL would also very likely have enough AP credits to knock at least a half-year off at NYU (and possibly a full year).
NYU also does offer some students some fin aid (in grant money) and some students some merit scholarships, so financially, it would really depend on individual circumstance.