America's Most Overrated Product: the Bachelor's Degree

Parents Forum
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<p>A new article from The Chronical of Higher Education with some very “ouch” inducing quotables.</p>

<p>[America’s</a> Most Overrated Product: the Bachelor’s Degree](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/temp/email2.php?id=wWwv6kBkcTbYktwbjrJkskjtdhknjqvf]America’s”>http://chronicle.com/temp/email2.php?id=wWwv6kBkcTbYktwbjrJkskjtdhknjqvf)</p>

<p>Colleges trumpet the statistic that, over their lifetimes, college graduates earn more than nongraduates, but that’s terribly misleading. You could lock the collegebound in a closet for four years, and they’d still go on to earn more than the pool of non-collegebound — they’re brighter, more motivated, and have better family connections…</p>

<p>*…Colleges and universities are businesses, and students are a cost item, while research is a profit center. As a result, many institutions tend to educate students in the cheapest way possible: large lecture classes, with necessary small classes staffed by rock-bottom-cost graduate students. At many colleges, only a small percentage of the typical student’s classroom hours will have been spent with fewer than 30 students taught by a professor, according to student-questionnaire data I used for my book How to Get an Ivy League Education at a State University. When students at 115 institutions were asked what percentage of their class time had been spent in classes of fewer than 30 students, the average response was 28 percent.</p>

<p>That’s not to say that professor-taught classes are so worthwhile. The more prestigious the institution, the more likely that faculty members are hired and promoted much more for their research than for their teaching. Professors who bring in big research dollars are almost always rewarded more highly than a fine teacher who doesn’t bring in the research bucks. Ernest L. Boyer, the late president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, used to say that winning the campus teaching award was the kiss of death when it came to tenure…*</p>

<p>*…College students may be dissatisfied with instruction, but, despite that, do they learn? A 2006 study supported by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that 50 percent of college seniors scored below “proficient” levels on a test that required them to do such basic tasks as understand the arguments of newspaper editorials or compare credit-card offers. Almost 20 percent of seniors had only basic quantitative skills. The students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the gas station.</p>

<p>Unbelievably, according to the Spellings Report, which was released in 2006 by a federal commission that examined the future of American higher education, things are getting even worse: “Over the past decade, literacy among college graduates has actually declined. … According to the most recent National Assessment of Adult Literacy, for instance, the percentage of college graduates deemed proficient in prose literacy has actually declined from 40 to 31 percent in the past decade. … Employers report repeatedly that many new graduates they hire are not prepared to work, lacking the critical thinking, writing and problem-solving skills needed in today’s workplaces.”*</p>

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<p>I’d still vote to go to college for the experiences you can’t get elsewhere. Maybe this is a wake up call that college should be for fewer students, I have felt that today’s society seems to see college as a job training tool, not as the education it once was. Has anyone else noticed the high number of students that are concerned with which business school, for undergrad, will get them the job, or the numbers interested in business schools? Years ago it seemed as though people went into business after getting a degree in something else, often getting a masters in a business field after their engineering degree or credits in business courses after another major.</p>

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<p>This is reflected throughout the educational system. I had a chance to speak with my AP bio teacher from HS recently, and he was concerned with the number of kids that were earning C’s, D’s, and F’s in his class, and how the number seemed to go up every year. It had nothing to do with new material or a change in the grading of the course- rather, there were more kids in the class each year that shouldn’t have been. Students are basically demanding to be placed in classes where they really don’t belong, due to the pressure to take all the AP classes they can so they can get into a “good” college and then a “good” job down the road. I think an emphasis on vocational training benefit society as a whole. The way the system is set up right now, it’s pressuring kids to go to college that really don’t belong there. Those same kids are terrified by guidance counselors, well-meaning-but-under-informed parents, and media reports into thinking that if they don’t go to college, they’ll fail at life.</p>

<p>Side note: Does anyone happen to know what the average starting salary would be for a newly-trained electrician or carpenter? I have a feeling it would help my argument.</p>

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<p>Slight digression, but a lot of people, in general (and it is implied in the article, which is why I mention it here) seem to think that the only way you learn things in college is through a professor’s lectures. That’s the tip of the iceberg.</p>

<p>Which is not to say that I entirely disagree with the article. I think that more emphasis on vocational training would do people good. But how do you decide who does it? My own school district had numerous voluntary vocational training programs (which still provided a good college prep education along with the training, so that students could still go to college if they wanted), but I’d be worried about a tracking system that separated students into vocational and college prep based on results of some middle school test, with the quality of the education received by the vocational students being inferior.</p>

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<p>Engineers graduating with a B.S. would probably beg to differ.</p>

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<p>The sad part is; even with all the emphasis people here put on college and education, the facts show; as of 2006; that 56.4% of college students graduated within 6 years of starting their undergraduate degree. It doesn’t improve much if you give them another 2 years. So basically; we’re seeing a little over half of the college student in the country are going to graduate with their BA/BS degree</p>

<p>What is equally sad is that just shy of 70% of kids graduate high school. Obviously, the vast majority of the drop outs probably don’t go on to college immediately. </p>

<p>Only about 27% of Americans age 25 or OLDER had at least an undergraduate degree.</p>

<p>Now; I’m not saying that we shouldn’t allow people the right to acquire the means to go on to further their education; just that with so many students being REJECTED from schools when they apply; and the limited amount of financial aid that is available; I believe that a means should be made to better filter those applying to schools and especially applying for aid. Not to take anything away from those who are going to school, but with half of the kids dropping out of college, I can’t help but think about the kid who wanted to go to XYZ university and couldn’t because he/she couldn’t afford it; couldn’t get financial aid/scholarships, or were rejected.</p>

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<p>I LOVE this school…(just got a HUGE gift from a local philanthropist - should be around for a LONG time). It’s free too! [About</a> Williamson: A Brief History](<a href=“http://www.williamson.edu/about/history.htm]About”>http://www.williamson.edu/about/history.htm)
A Williamson Education
To meet the goals outlined above, Williamson takes a unique approach to occupational education. Over the course of three years at the School, students receive a broad education that includes study of trade and technical theory in the classroom and realistic work projects. Students also receive academic instruction that is designed to contribute to their career success. This well-rounded training is intended to provide graduates with the skills necessary for success in a wide variety of career options, from positions in the trade and technical fields to employment as small business owners.</p>

<p>But training at Williamson goes far beyond the classroom, as students live in a carefully structured environment that includes daily chapel, work details, and clearly defined rules and responsibilities. A Williamson education emphasizes the importance of moral values, industry, and quality workmanship. The goal is to foster in students the proper attitudes for success in life and on the job, including self-discipline, personal integrity, and reliability.</p>

<p>An independent, post-secondary, vocational-technical school, Williamson provides all students with full scholarships that cover tuition, room, board, and textbooks, making Williamson the only free school of its kind in the nation. In exchange for their education, students must follow the School’s rules and help with the food service and maintenance of buildings and grounds.</p>

<p>For over 110 years, Williamson has been using its unique approach to vocational education to prepare high-quality tradesmen and technicians. In the process, it has gained a national reputation for producing graduates who have become expert craftsmen, successful businessmen, respected citizens, and recognized leaders in their fields.</p>

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<p>I believe a(fully qualified)unionized journeyman carpenter starting salary is $43 an hour,plus $10 per hour paid by employer into an annuity fund, no contribution to health care for single or family. Vacation pay of about7 to 8,000 a year. Add to that a full pension at the end early retirement of 55(about 2800 a month) 3200 if they can handle the work load till 62. My dad retired with over 500,000 in his annuity fund plus his 3200 a month about 2 years ago.</p>

<p>Don’t even guess what an electrician/plumber makes its even more than the above.</p>

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<p>CBK, I used to drive to work past a sign on the fence of a local business advertising that an electrician apprentice was needed. The pay? $18-22/hr. Not too shabby.</p>

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<p>An old joke:</p>

<p>A man gets presented with a high plumbing bill and says “A hundred dollars and hour? I’m a doctor and I don’t make that much!”</p>

<p>The plumber replies: “I know. When I was a doctor I didn’t make that much either.”</p>

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<p>Even more ridiculous is a law degree. The starting attorney salary where I work is $55,000. Another law agency I am familiar with pays $49,000 to start. I recently met a man on the train who drives a garbage truck for the city of NY and makes a similar amount.</p>

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<p>I don’t mind that my garbage man makes good money. He works a lot harder than I do.</p>

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<p>My brother is a licensed electrician and he doesn’t get anywhere near $43.00 per hour. $18-20 is more realistic, at least in this area.</p>

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<p>I have a PhD and work “full-time” (academics) and don’t make as much as many with no degree. I have met hair dressers who earn twice and three times what I do.</p>

<p>Do I regret my PhD? Not at all. I enjoy my job. In fact, I’d be doing exactly the same thing if I weren’t paid: learning, researching, writing and teaching.</p>

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<p>these were NYC carpenter rates.</p>

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<p>Amen. Some schools admit with the philosophy of ‘sink or swim’ (think ‘weedout’ courses’). At least they don’t gatekeep. Let the HS kids get Cs, Ds and Fs in AP courses - then they know what they’re expected of in college, and whether they can/will work hard enough to do better.</p>

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<p>I’ve been working as a software developer for 12 years without a degree and have been making over 200k a year for the past 5 years. In the business world, domain knowledge combined with the ability to deliver relatively bug-free software on time while meeting a strict set of requirements is what gets you paid. You know … all that good stuff: (your integrity, your discipline, your finished product) –> your reputation. </p>

<p>Why am I quitting my job to go back to school then?? The answer is that in the future if I find something new and exciting that catches my interest, I don’t want a barrier to entry to be my lack of the appropriate degree. So, I’m going after a Ph.D. I figure that if I don’t stop until I get to the top, I’ll be fairly set for the next 40 or so years. At the end of the day, money is great – it buys nice cars, vacations, clothes, food, stuff … but interesting work is also nice and one of the only ways to get a big company to give you a multi-million dollar budget in something like a silicon valley venture is for one to add an advanced degree to his or her portfolio as well. Fortune 500 companies also love big degrees. </p>

<p>Just be careful not to become an overtrained and overspecialized equivalent of a high-tech assembly line worker. At that point, you become dispensable. My friend has worked “the world’s number 1 database” [insert name here] producer for 7 years and has gotten nowhere. He got an advanced degree from one of the best schools in the nation.</p>

<p>Do what you like, and do it well and [most of the time] the money will come. If not, then maybe the rewards aren’t pecuniary.</p>

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<p>I think that articles like this, and about all sorts of other subjects that show up in the news media, are intended simply to sell the particular medium through shock not real information. Unfortunately, the news media is looking to create news through what amounts to staging media events. It is happening all over the place. School ratings by Bus Week and USNWR are not really intended to provide information but to sell magazines. This requires some turnover in the lists, which magically appears to happen. Could not have same school #1 forever, and worse yet the top ten or twenty. </p>

<p>It is the slavish following of this mis and myth information that creates the uncritical and lemming like behavior that we see as people then rush to adopt the next new thing whatever it is. Or believe the media is correct. The “I saw it on TV or read it in the newspaper” syndrom.</p>

<p>As I said the problem goes beyond articles on education (which pray on parents’ and students’ anxieties) to pretty much most facits of the media “reporting”. Look carefully at the election coverage, the media is shilling pure and simple. A few in the media recognize it an worry, but most are just counting the $$.</p>

<p>I suggest charting your own course, not based on what comes out of the media in the forms of articles. There are many ways to succeed, some are better bets than others, so chose what works for you.</p>

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<p>It’s all about job competition. On average, those with the best education/training/qualifications will get the best jobs. One or two generations ago a high school diploma was all it took to get a decent job, but that’s no longer sufficient. A college degree used to guarantee a decent job, and that’s no longer true, either. The rest of the world has been catching up while we neglected education. The government’s suppression of science and K-12 science education for the past few years hasn’t helped our situation.</p>