<p>"While I had to jump some of the postings on this thread because it is too long but informative, I wish to add that there could also be an additional reason why an 'excellent student gets rejected.</p>
<p>If a school has e.g. only 40 spaces for Chemical Eng and 1000 with top grades (2200+ and 3.9GPA) applicants are being considered, the rejection will not seem meaningful to these rejected 900+ applicants whose scores were supposed to be perfect for such schools.
We generally always hear a child was rejected at a top school but not the proposed major. "</p>
<p>I wonder if it is a better tactic to apply undeclared, unless it’s a school that requires a major with application.</p>
<p>Mindy Sue’s feelings are understandable.
At my son’s school, a NMS with boffo GPA and ECs was turned down by Cal and UCLA (got in to USC, and he’s going there). Another student, 1900 SAT and 3.8 UW got in to Cal, but rejected by USC.</p>
<p>I am aware of the changes for this year at the UC’s. Things certainly shifted at D’s HS–last year many students were accepted to UCLA, a few to UCB. This year, it’s the reverse. USC acceptances are also down.
I wish they would update the Stat Finder, I believe I read somewhere that the funding has been cut. I still think it offers a reasonable insight for the chances of admission given certain GPA/SAT combinations. And no where can you find a 100% guarantee of admission.</p>
<p>Cal’s admission process has become more holistic. It seems like the top students have worse results when this happens. </p>
<p>It was my impression that you could guarentee admission at most state flagships with GPA (weighted, uweighted) and SAT alone. That may have changed though, so feel free to chime in if you know otherwise.</p>
<p>If you apply undeclared, you miss a huge chance to show how you are prepared for that major. It leaves adcoms guessing what the pattern of courses in hs means.<br>
I couldn’t recreate the statsfinder table- but I see that only 60% of CR 700-800 were admitted and 50% for M. Class of 2015. No total numbers; no telling if most admits scored at the top of the range. For the 600-690 range, the admit % is roughly half that in each. On the UCLA web site.</p>
<p>I know you said you read for the adcoms but I don’t see how a declared major has any meaning at a school where you first declare a major in sophomore year since the schools know that the vast majority don’t major in what was put on the application. How is a kid supposed to get exposed to anthropology, geology, or gender studies in a typical college prep high school schedule? If I were the adcom, I would want kids who came with an open mind ready to sample from the smorgasbord before picking a major and not ones who were laser focused with limited high school exposure.</p>
<p>At schools where the indication of major makes a difference in selectivity, it is typically difficult for enrolled students to declare or change into the popular majors which are most selective in freshman admissions.</p>
<p>For example, if the engineering majors at the school are more popular and therefore more selective at freshman admission time, a student who applies as “undeclared arts and sciences” may get in even if s/he would otherwise not have gotten in applying as an engineering major. But once enrolled, s/he must take the engineering prerequisite courses and then apply to change into the desired engineering major, which often requires a very high college GPA because it is enrolled almost to capacity.</p>
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<p>Some majors like physics have long prerequisite sequences which require students considering those majors to be laser focused on taking the prerequisite courses almost as soon as they enter as freshmen.</p>
<p>^I truly understand that some majors will have so many prerequisites as to require students to start on them freshman year. My concern is that kids who think they want to be history majors struggle with thinking that putting down an interest in classics or slavic studies will make them more competitive to fulfill an institutional need. Since the adcoms know there is such a poor correlation between stated major on the application and eventual major at graduation, this is not a useful question. Furthermore, “undecided” kids think that will be held against them. I recall that approximately 95% of kids to my college put down an intended major and that number is ludicrously high.</p>
<p>“You can search a person’s posts and see what they’ve shared on cc. The info above is correct”</p>
<p>Nah, not doing that. I know some think that is just being diligent, but I consider searching posts and using them in other threads to be rather creepy.</p>
<p>Schools vary in how they treat intended majors listed on applications. Unfortunately, it is not always clear from the school web sites whether the student is applying to the school as a whole, or is applying to a specific major within the school. What you observe with how Yale treats intended major is not necessarily the same as it is at other schools.</p>
<p>State universities (which enroll the bulk of four year college students) are often at capacity in popular majors, so they often have different admission thresholds for different majors, and changing major often means applying to do so.</p>
<p>ucb, I agree that can be the case for many publics, schools where you get tracked early, or where you apply to a certain division. </p>
<p>YGD- the short answer is: undeclared isn’t a red flag; it just makes it harder to see what the kid is interested in, his performance in that arena and his potential. When a kid can’t articulate what direction(s) seem intriguing, somewhere in the CA and supplements, adcoms are left guessing. Openness to the new variety of courses in college is important, but if kid can’t tell you what interests him today, the risk is he seems vague, in general. </p>
<p>Adcoms know kids change their minds. This is more about being able to express the ideas you have today. And, show you’ve pursued them, so far.</p>
<p>This makes sense as well. Several people mentioned this up thread, including lookingforward, iirc. Perhaps the intended major has more influence on one’s chances.</p>
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<p>Is there any striking difference between the two groups of top students, gender, race, URM/ORM status?</p>
<p>For those who want to use the UC Stat Finder:
start here: [University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu/default.aspx]University”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu/default.aspx)
click on Custom Tables, then choose Data Type (Undergrad Admission or Persistance) then next… keep selecting your data. In number 6, choose a complex table. Number 7 allows you to select applicant charactoristics, you can choose from a variety of items–there is a limit, but you can go back and change them. (hit the back button twice, then highlight #7 in the left hand column and make changes). Keep in mind that ELC in 2009 was very different than ELC currently, and so is UC eligible. I don’t use those charactoristics. I generally look at UW GPA, SAT and UC GPA.</p>
<p>As mentioned by another poster, UC was more holistic this year, but this gives you some idea of what those stats do for the admission possibilities at each campus. I think it saves some heartache. If you know going in that the most recent data indicates a admission chance of less than XX% you are less likely to be shocked, and you can make better applicantion choices.</p>
<p>I showed the charts to our D early in her Junior year. She knew what GPA would give her the best chance at admission, could evaluate what retaking the SAT would/wouldn’t do, etc. Her EC’s were pretty much set by then, so it was a matter of looking at what she could impact.</p>
<p>In my very small sample of two, declaring or not declaring a major on an application made no difference in admissions. Declaring a premature major did, however, create some unnecessarily lower first semester grades, which I think is something to consider.</p>
<p>S2 applied to 11 schools, and was honestly not sure about his intended major in early fall of his senior year of high school. Engineering was a possible major he had been considering, so he applied as such to those universities on his list that offered engineering, and as undeclared to those universities that didn’t, with the thought that it would be easier to change OUT rather than change INTO engineering later. He had no surprises on his admission offers. He ended up at a university that he applied to as an undeclared major.</p>
<p>Looking back, S1 should have applied as an undeclared major as well, but applied as a biology/premed major. Again, no surprises on his acceptances, but that major as a freshman shunted him into a freshman schedule (crafted by the biology/premed advisors and designed as a quick application of Roundup) that quickly killed his interest. He would have been better off as an undeclared major, taking the premed courses while eventually figuring out the better fitting, nonscience major he is now pursuing.</p>
<p>Most colleges that admit by major do not advertise this because they do not want students applying to specific majors in an attempt to just get admitted, with plans of changing their majors once they get there.</p>
<p>My kid listed two intended majors. Was definitely a help. His school accepts less than 10% RD, and he chose two majors with 6 or less graduates a year. Was this to game the system? No. These were his two passions, which was evident from everything in his application. Could not have fakes these interests which took years to nurture (music lessons starting at 4.)</p>
<p>He tried one major and dropped it in favor of the second, but did graduate as one of 4 the year he graduated.</p>
<p>IMHO he would have done better with a different major because his GPA was lower in his major than his overall GPA, and it was excellent in a very popular major.</p>
<p>However, this wasn’t my call.</p>
<p>He did provide his school with much needed interest in an esoteric discipline that the school has a vested interest in maintaining.</p>
<p>I doubt he would have been accepted to this school without that interest.</p>
<p>This may be an unusual situation, but I am sure it’s not unique.</p>
<p>My son thought he’d probably go into IR, but only put it down as his intended major at the schools that required making a choice. His reasoning was that he hadn’t participated in typical IR EC’s in high school. (For good reasons, Model UN was full of the kids who drank for example and the team was not particularly successful, while he really liked the Science Olympiad team and he turned out to be quite good at it, getting medals every year.) In any event, I think he was better served by being undeclared. He ended up at a school where IR is one of the largest majors, so if he’d said IR, the admissions committee might have said, “Oh no, another one!”</p>
<p>East- D2 had the same situation as your S1. She is thrilled by her humanities studies now, growing by leaps and bounds, intellectually. But, she was sure enough to list bio/pre-med and would have faced the same issues, regardless. </p>
<p>Myth- D1, last time she mentioned, will be one of two graduating in her specific major (a subfield.) She’s had this interest since mid-hs and, like your son, could genuinely describe her “passion” and prep. In her case, her two choices on the CA are woven into one specialty at her college.</p>
<p>My point is, if you really dont know or are torn in a few directions, it’s good to give adcoms (at a school that does not fix you into a track) an idea of your thoughts. Let adcoms get to know you. There’s usually some question or two meant to flush out what the kid’s thinking. Some use that wisely, some go off on tangents. This affects kids who list possible majors, as well.</p>