Agreed … on CC we certainly hear lots of anecdotal stories of preferencial financial aid for athletes. If I want to defend the league I can say I know all schools report all the financial aid packages of all the recruits to the league can verify they fall within the band of aid given to non-recruits. If I want to be cynical the league on a whole could be generous about allowing some slack so all the teams can compete better with teams outside the league. If I want to be real cynical schools could give some amazing packages to non-athletes so recruits packages are not total outliers. I have no inside info to know more … although the anecdotes I have heard personally have tended to the side of full-pay ivy athletes however these folks were not big time recruits in big time sports so would not be the candidates for preferencial treatment.</p>
<p>I think we have to remember that the plural of anecdote is not data and that self reporting is not always the most reliable way to gather information. I’ve heard more than one grandma brag about how their grandchild was given a “full athletic scholarship” to an Ivy League university or NESCAC school, only to watch that same grandchild roll their eyes and remind grandma that they’re on plain old financial aid. I’ve also heard kids report results for their friends and classmates which, when checked with their parents of the classmates in question, turned out to be wildly inaccurate. </p>
<p>I was on the other end of this when, as a new college graduate, I overheard my mother reporting my new job as “Assistant Director of Operations” for a large corporation. In reality I was the assistant TO the Director of Operations, a job more befitting my limited experience. Mom wasn’t trying to fudge, she was just excited, but she may have left the impression that my new job was more impressive than it was in reality.</p>
<p>Before some start to rag on instutions again, understand that there is various data out there but folks don’t access more than what’s easy. (It’s institutional research or related to the trends and values at a school, the programs it’s investing in, misc insights, not the sort of detail that would appear on the admissions site. A lot don’t access the college’s web pages anyway, for basics; they ask on CC instead.) They want the formula for getting an admit, not all the detail that surrounds it, the resposibility. No such neat little package. There is no one formula, anyway. But, that’s what people want. Latest diet fad, get rich quick scheme. Ajaxma makes a good point- but it’s not what people want to hear. They want to think it’s smarmy, grinchy adcoms conspiring, lotteries, 5 spots left for unhookeds, etc. Sorry. </p>
<p>As for athletes, there are stories about the kids who get the grants, etc, but can’t afford much more (wasn’t there some hubbub last year or two about endorsements or something to help with living expenses? Or am I confusing two things?) It helps if you consider the athlete situation by itself and not try to draw some conclusions about what it means in holistic or finaid or for the general pool. As I understand it, the actual number of freshman recruits in some sport- at an LAC- is nowhere near the mania at some big sports powerhouse uni.</p>
<p>I think one claim that’s made above is that Harvard’s extremely generous need-based financial aid system may be designed to allow athletes to get a lot of aid even if they are from relatively well-off families. I suspect that’s at least a side-effect of the policy, if not its purpose–but a lot of other people in the same income range benefit from it as well. In theory, at least, there shouldn’t be anybody at an Ivy League school getting more financial aid than a person with the same finances just because the first person is an athlete. Is the reality different? I don’t know, but there hasn’t been a big scandal about it, as far as I know.</p>
<p>“A lot” of people DON’T benefit from the policy. Half the student body is full-pay. The Pell Grantees are still Pell Grantees, and there aren’t any more of them. The full-pay internationals are still full-pay internationals. It is true that those receiving the measly $5k grants in lieu of loans (who didn’t need them to begin with) “benefit”. When you take all these out, you find a sweet spot - $60k-$125k income. There aren’t that many of them at H. But it is the sweet spot for athletes.</p>
<p>And I think that’s fine. It’s their money, and they can use it as they like. And they certainly don’t need any more nerds! (And it’s not a “full scholarship” - as I understand, H. requires those in the sweet spot to pay 10% of their income. It’s a great deal, and lures athletes away from the Vanderbilts of the world, but it’s not a full ride.)</p>
<p>“…folks don’t access more than what’s easy.”</p>
<p>So true, lookingforward. For instance, I’ve seen people here complain that recruiting for football at Harvard is done behind a Chinese wall, yet I googled “statistics on harvard football recruiting” and this page popped right up. It’s a Harvard press release listing the names, home towns and high schools of the 32 football recruits in this year’s freshman class. Among them are kids from Exeter and Andover, as well as strong public schools.</p>
<p>Dig a little further and you’ll find bios for most players. Here are the first three I clicked at random:
Two-year starter and letterwinner at tight end and defensive end … Senior captain … All-Scholastic by the Boston Herald as a senior … First team all-league … Led team with nine sacks and 57 tackles along with 23 receptions for 267 yards … Magliozzi Award for moral, scholastic, and athletic excellence at Wakefield High School. </p>
<p>Two-year letterwinner at tight end and defensive end at New Hartford High School … First team all-league as a senior and team’s most improved award … Also ran indoor track … AP Scholar with distinction … National Honor Society … Rotary Youth Leadership Award winner … Father, Michael, is a 1980 graduate of Harvard and was a three-year letterwinner in lightweight rowing … Uncle, Jack Ryan, played football at Cornell.</p>
<p>Earned five letters in football, basketball and baseball at Naperville Central High School … Senior captain in football … All-City, All-Dupage Valley Conference first team and all-area selection … Chicago Tribune All-State Special Mention … Two-time academic All-state pick …Walter Peyton Roundhouse Player of the Week pick on one occasion …Illinois Coaches Association state all-star team …National Honor Society … Academic all-conference in football and basketball … Distinguished Honor Roll … enjoys playing the piano.</p>
<p>Applicants - bulk up! (Hey, I have one d who is a nerd, and one who is an athlete, and I think this is GREAT! But pounds wouldn’t have helped her…)</p>
<p>^ And since they give no merit awards, that apparently would mean that more than a third of the class is from families who can write four checks for ~$60K each.</p>
<p>Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Just sayin’ …</p>
<p>Since H has such a high income ceiling for need based aid- and not all aid necessarily adds up to big numbers- there could be plenty of families writing four fat checks, no?</p>
<p>I hope the publish the REAL acceptance rates for the class of 2012. My son applied to colleges where he had 90%+ chance of getting in, based on SAT and GPA, and he did not. If I had the REAL admissions rates, it would have saved us hundreds of dollars!</p>
<p>MindySue, What do you mean by the real admissions rates? Every application is unique and GPA and SATs don’t tell the whole story of an applicant. </p>
<p>To which colleges did your son apply? Did you look at the average scores and grades for kids who weren’t accepted as well as those who were? At some top schools there is a considerable overlap between the accepted and denied groups.</p>
<p>MindySue, unless those colleges accept 90%+ of ALL applicants, your son never had 90% chance of admission.</p>
<p>Colleges do NOT select students by SAT score !!!</p>
<p>They use SAT scores as a way of verifying that applicants that they want to accept for other reasons are qualified to do the work at their school. </p>
<p>They don’t pay that much attention to raw GPA either. They are more interested in class rank (when available) and in the pattern of courses each student completed in high school. </p>
<p>Selective colleges are looking to admit people, not numbers. </p>
<p>If a parent or student is calculating “chances” because the SAT score are significantly higher than the norm for that school, that simply is not a way to calculate the likelihood of admission.</p>
<p>Any of the schools can get around the AI or any other criteria that they have for most admissions. Schools may have some rules using average AIs for a team or other such thing so there is not such a chasm, but, yes, athletes, celebrities, development and special circumstances can have stats that are way lower than the AIs in place for admissions guidance. I remember a kid they called “Calculus” at a certain school who was on the football team though he never played. He had great stats and kept the team stats average up there. Very important team member as he balanced out someone’s not so great numbers.</p>
<p>As for financial aid, in my experience with jock kids, the ones who got accepted to the most selective colleges that I know did not get a dime in extra aid. Many of them gave up full rides and athletic scholarships to go to a more selective school. My friend has a son playing football, and his stats are nothing to sniff about; he is at a top school in terms of USNWR rank and selectivity, but he gets zilch in terms of aid or scholarship. He could have gone to any number of very good schools for free. One does trade selectivity for money many times.</p>
<p>I do know a few athletes who went the other way as well, including my own brother who was an Olympian. He took the athletic program over more prestigious choices. Also a classmate of mine turned down Harvard for a major football school as he had NFL hopes. In both cases , the choices were full rides all around. </p>
<p>I would not waste time brooding about the unfairness of the athletic recruits. There really are not that many kids who row their way into Harvard. Yes, there are some, but most of them have pretty danged good numbers anyways. Those whose only claim to fame is their athletic prowess are very few at these top schools.</p>
<p>Or maybe you should have done your research first.</p>
<p>Your son got rejected from UCLA, USC and UCB, all highly competitive schools. And your son has a 1900 SAT. I’m not surprised he didn’t get in with that score.</p>
<p>^^But she did not say which schools she was referring to. You can’t assume that she was talking about the UC’s. She very well could have been referring to his safety schools.</p>
<p>For the UC schools the information is posted at the UC Statsfinder. The most recent class is 2009, but it gives incredibly detailed data on admission rates based on factors you select. Very helpful for those looking at UC’s.</p>
<p>With a 1900 SAT and a 4.0 unweighted GPA, the admit rate is 64% at UCB and 67% UCLA for 2009. Less than a 4.0 and the admit rate is 40% range for both schools, or lower as the GPA decreases.</p>
<p>The information is easy to find, once you know what to goggle. I do wish the GC’s gave out the website, it would help a lot of students.</p>
<p>Mom2M – for UCs - the 2012 data will be nothing like 2009 because of lots of new things “introduced” (holistic/no SAT2/no point system etc etc) this year. Its quite evident in this year high school admissions all across the bay area.</p>