<p>Silvermoonlock, I apologize. I do not want to drive you away or to insult you. I think the situation we face here, in some ways reflects the greater stage. Everyone imagines that they are speaking plainly and making great sense, but other people do not agree, and imagine that they are the ones with the answers.</p>
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<p>And I thought it was hard talking with my teenage daughter …</p>
<p>send me a message if u want to read my overly long explanation of race relations in america. basic points:</p>
<p>the american definition of citizenship is based on a black-white dichotomy.</p>
<p>we are progressively moving to a black-non black dichotomy</p>
<p>blacks can’t integrate because american citizenship is, to some degree, based on not being black – or not ‘being like those blacks’. this is why african immigrants go to great lengths to disassociate themselves from african-americans and why every immigrant learns to stay away from black americans. not being like black americans is part of being american.</p>
<p>it’s foolish to compare blacks americans to any immigrant group. willingly immigrating to america is different from being enslaved and then systematically discriminated against. it’s also a different because america has very well-developed racial schema.</p>
<p>asians are model minorities because it justifies the american tendency to hold an unreasonable disdain for blacks. because they aren’t american by virtue of their blackness. this designation, however, is contingent upon asians lacking political clout.</p>
<p>on a related note, white america has no intention of elminating affirmative action because they are the real beneficiaries. blacks get stigmatized for a policy that doesn’t even affect the vast majority of them. asians get locked out of the top universities that they disproportionately apply to and attend. whites get to keep asian competition to a minimum and find reason to justify their belief of black incompetence.</p>
<p>obama must focus on race relations between blacks and whites because those are the pressing and important.</p>
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<p>He certainly has a unique opportunity. However, I think it is a bad decision to lecture to whites or tell them how they ‘should’ or ‘must’ think or speak, because all that is, is a reverse example of the same arrogance and bias which was imposed on Blacks for so long by Whites. </p>
<p>I’d like to see us reach a point where majority political leaders take care to protect the rights of minority citizens, and minority political leaders took strong interest in protecting the rights of the majority citizens. That is, where each official understood not only his or her power and influence, but also his or her duty and responsibility to people not like him or herself in culture, background, or appearance.</p>
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<p>I agree that tone will matter a lot. But at the same time, I think Obama has to be frank about America’s modern racist tendencies and America’s racist past. Too many young people think that the reason blacks stereotyped as violent, oversexed, dumb, and criminal because they exhibit those behaviors, when in fact those stereotypes long proceeded the main sub-culture, corporate hip-hop, that exemplifies them. That needs to be stressed. Heavily. </p>
<p>Too many people think it’s OK to be racist to black people because they see a black guy on BET with a grill, 24’s, rapping about being a dope boy. They do need to understand that that isn’t black culture, nor accurate representation of black people. It’s like a lot of whites have this idea that black propagate these stereotypes all by themselves. That’s hardly the case. White people sustain hip-hop. They are both the owners and main consumers. At this point, hip-hop is more of a representation of their interests and preferences and beliefs about black culture than anything else.</p>
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<p>Ever hear of Martin Luther King Jr? He had this thing called the Poor People’s Campaign that crossed racial lines…</p>
<p>I remember Dr. King. He worked hard to have people judged by their character.</p>
<p>Assuming a person is racist is patently offensive, and broad-brushing a whole demographic just because you want to is no way to move things forward.</p>
<p>Let’s move past lies and insults, please.</p>
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<p>I agree. That’s why I’m strong opponent of redlining, white flight, block busing, opposing school busing and school vouchers, and engaging in about of dozen other forms de facto racism. Such actions can’t be justified without relying on broad-brushing a whole group of people.</p>
<p>Too many people yell, “Why don’t blacks integrate?! Why can’t they just be American?”, as they pack up and move to another suburb because two black families have moved into their neighborhood.</p>
<p>Ahh, but have you considered causes? Or is it automatically ‘racism’ when a delivery or cab service won’t go to an area where they are robbed and attacked, or people move away from areas where vandalism and gang activity increase?</p>
<p>I’m not saying racism does not happen, but this ipso facto simplicity is not valid.</p>
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<p>I have considered causes. Have you? White people don’t move away from their neighborhoods when a few black families move in because of an increase in vandalism. They leave because black families have moved in. After the white families have left in droves, decreasing the area’s property tax revenue and cheapening the prices of the homes the vandalism and gang activity increases. It happens because the area is more accessible to the kind of people that commit crime. But that only happens because of white flight.</p>
<p>In the end whites flee from something that they create. Then they turn around and think about how glad that are to have gotten out of the neighborhood before it became a ghetto, unaware that they are a huge part of the cause.</p>
<p>That’s not even to mention the inherent racism against the original black families who no doubt worked hard to be able to move into a house with a white picket fence. They just wanted their share of the American dream. Unfortunately, because of de facto racism they’re denied at every turn. </p>
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<p>So white people are allowed to flee from blacks like they’re the plague because, unaware of their role in the inevitable deterioration of neighborhoods, they notice that black neighbors are like a bad omen and that’s not racism. But blacks aren’t allowed to observe this behavior and conclude that a whole lot of whites are racist? Seems like an inconsistent line of reasoning to me.</p>
<p>Sorry, I just don’t agree Nearl, especially on the broad level you seem to be asserting. Whites take the trouble to sell their homes and move just because blacks move into the neighborhood? I have not been everywhere, but I’ve lived in a lot of places (I’m 49 and have moved around a lot) and talked with many people.</p>
<p>You say the Whites create the problem, but in my experience that’s just not so. That’s not to say Blacks cause the problem, by the way. A major problem I have seen, for example, is buyers who buy a bunch of houses in an area then rent out the houses. Renters simply do not take care of the property the way homeowners do, and as a result there is often friction between people who make mortgage payments and keep their property nice and renters who leave trash out and ignore their lawn, and whose behavior and visitors often includes damage to the area, like a family I knew who had a friend come visit - he simply forced his truck through the gates to get in, rather than ask them for the code. Depending on the neighborhood the renters may be from a variety of races, but on the national scale blacks are demographically more likely to rent homes than whites, and there is a possible answer for what you call “White flight”. I’m not saying that is the only cause, but it is a very real cause which I have seen, which has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with quality-of-life and a sense of security where you live.</p>
<p>You also mentioned red-lining. Again, we have to go back to causes. Let’s consider a pizza delivery service. It makes little sense to ignore an area unless it’s too far to be practical or it’s a dangerous area, because more territory means more customers means more profits. But getting robbed or atacked will make drivers say ‘no I will not go here’ and if it happens enough times the company has no choice but to leave that area alone. That’s not because of race, it’s because of crime. If the city orders businesses to serve a dangerous area anyway that violates the company’s right to operate freely, it punishes the company and fails to address the real problem of crime in the area. Worse, such an order will anger the business owner who may see it as reverse racism. So it really makes no sense to oppose red-lining without knowing all the causes and addressing them. It’s better for everyone to address root causes rather than wrongly accuse honest people.</p>
<p>With that said, it’s obvious that racism still happens, and what’s worse it’s more subtle. But it also needs to be noted that there is racism against Asians, against Whites, against Jews, and all demographic groups. It’s not moral to look out for the rights of one ethnic group but not the others, especially if you want to have the moral high ground. To me, then, it makes sense to dig down to root causes because the real racism cannot be hidden or excused. Almost no one is crude enough to imagine that schools should be segregated, or that businesses should deny service to someone because of their race or charge mroe for the same service because of race. Those battles are won, and they were won not through threats or intimidation but by simple common sense. It’s not racist for a cab driver to avoid areas where he is likely to get robbed, but it is racist if he drives in an area but refuses to pick up Black fares. It’s not racist for a company to expect a potential employee to be honest, clean and courteous, but it would be racist to deny promotions to qualified Hispanic employees. It’s not racist to want to have diversity in a corporation, but it is racist to deny Asians executive positions because a slot is “reserved” for a Black candidate.</p>
<p>I have seen a lot of racism in my life. I’ve seen some against me, and I’ve seen some against every other race too. I once was waiting for one of my employee’s parents to arrive after we closed for the night and a police car came up to us as we sat on the curb. The officers started harassing the young Black man, claiming that someone matching his description was wanted for a burglary, I explained that he was my employee and he had been at work for the last 6 hours straight and they told me to shut up. I tried to complain to HPD but was told that because it did not happen to me I could not complain. I still remember that and I have no illusions that it’s not even worse for such men when they are caught out alone. But I also had an employee told to his face that he was “too white” for a manager’s job I had recommended him for. I had a female employee turned down for a similar post because the company said she couldn’t ‘do a man’s job’ (OK that’s sex discrimination but you get my point). I’ve been to businesses where I was charged a higher price for the same item than my Black friends. I’ve been denied entry to some dance clubs because they are “Black only”.</p>
<p>Do Black people suffer more from racism than White people? Absolutely, even in this day and age it’s still a problem and I agree that Whites have advantages in many places just because of skin color. But at the same time, to really have a reasonable discussion on race we have to get past blaming every bad thing on racism or assuming that it only goes one way.</p>
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<p>The above seems to be a pure example of New racism, a new racist is the kind of person who would vote for Obama and support him, but still lock their car when they see thugs who happened to be black. From my experience in life many people are like this and this is the new dynamic of race in America. Where blacks who are aberrations from the conceptions of stereotypical blackness are readily accepted and treated well, but blacks who fail to embody the image of white America are rejected. </p>
<p>I can readily attest that I have not experienced racism, even from people who are blatant racist. I have not experienced it because I am the “model minority” type, the kind of black guy who doesn’t make whites feel uncomfortable. The smart, hardworking, “articulate” black guy that racists like to use to say they aren’t racist because they are friends with me. </p>
<p>For example I have a friend who is a girl and is white. She is a blatant racist. And constantly makes comments about how bad black people act, yet we are good friends and we are together alot, we eat together, ride together, and flirt together, etc. People like her don’t see what they do as racist because they have black friends (and in some occasions black boyfriends), unfortunately those people that they are friends with are not considered black in the stereotypical sense. Which is the basis for new racism. Another example is Obama’s grandmother who was afraid of a black guy, despite the fact that she had a black grandchild and a black son-in-law. </p>
<p>There seems to be a double standard of race in america, where the blacks who “act white” are accepted but the blacks who “act black” are rejected and treated poorly. I have personally seen teachers and people who are immensely kind to me, treat other black kids like dirt on the basis of new racism. Because they are not treating them bad because they are black but rather because they are bad people :rolls eyes:</p>
<p>I guess black people should soothe themselves with the fact that the people that are crossing the curb as they approach, following them in convenience stores, denying them taxi service, and denigrating their achievements are just playing it safe. I can tell my son as he gets old that, because of the actions of a relatively small amount of people who happen to look him, he’ll be treated with suspicion for the rest of his life. I can tell him to be an upstanding citizen despite the fact that people will suspect that he’s criminal, to be an achiever despite the fact that his victories will forever be diminished - like they were for his father, grandfather, and great grandfather. I can tell him to try his best to be what an American is supposed to exemplify despite the fact that he’ll never be treated like an American. All because he’s black.</p>
<p>Ah. So you know it all, and have nothing to learn or unlearn?</p>
<p>You should try to be less of an ass MBA grad. Obviously you don’t care or you are just complaining, but your statements scream of a person who is either too ignorant or too stubborn to see any thing other than their own point of view.</p>
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<p>I hate to break it to you, dbate, but that’s not an example of the new racism. Anybody in their right mind would lock their car when confronted by the presence of what appear to be “thugs”. Thugs are by definition potentially dangerous people. Blacks are not by definition, thugs, but some thugs are indeed black, and if you don’t exercise reasonable caution in their presence, you’re quite frankly stupid. I say this as a black woman who has checked to make sure her car doors are locked many times when I spotted a group of “gangsta” looking black youth headed toward me in a parking lot. I’ve done the same when spotting groups of white males whose appearance suggests to me that I would be wise to do the same. In all of these instances, there has never any hard evidence to emphatically suggest that I was in imminent danger, but when it comes to personal safety, for me at least, instinct trumps all other considerations.</p>
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<p>I have plenty to learn. I simply won’t accept or endorse covert racism.</p>
<p>I see that you’re reply was quite short. The very palpable feeling of modern racism is hard to accept when it’s articulated, isn’t it? You can’t bring yourself to admit that ‘being careful’ means being racist to black individuals on the basis of the behaviors of other black individuals.</p>
<p>Silvermoon:</p>
<p>I applaud your efforts. My response to to your original query was not based on the view that we as individuals can do nothing, but rather on my personal belief that it is not appropriate to discuss what I personally have or have not done in a public forum (no criticism of your contrary view express or implied). I simply believe that we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing something constructive by having public officials and self-styled intellectual pontificate about “race in America.” We all have deeply-entrenched beliefs about the state of race relations and no dialogue is going to change those beliefs. We should, however, try to devise specific solutions to deal with the problems on both a macro and micro level.</p>
<p>No Nearl, I simply dislike it when rational discourse is rejected in favor of jingoism and self-serving paranoia.</p>